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For Sale Lightning Brakes

Shane998

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
That was Roger Slater what a wonderful arrival they were back then because at the time we were cutting holes in steel plates and riviting on sheet alloy scoops to keep the heat down when racing and they were a great improvement they do look like his.
Do these bring back memories?IMG_2143.JPG
 

timetraveller

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Bill, did you make sure that the hole in the centre of the brake plates was well oversized compared with the hollow axle? One is supposed to do a loose assembly apply the brakes hard and then tighten up the tommy bar spindle. That way the shoes are centralised. A lot of the ali brake plates to not have large enough central holes.
 

Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
This was the early 70 s Norman, I don't think that way was known as much as now,
Trev is still not happy, That it works, Because if the plate is inside the Drum, There is only so far it can go
Before touching the drum, But we have used that way a lot now, We had a real bad one in 2015 With a box of bits Comet, For a friend, and that way worked a treat, Maybe there was a few too many shims, Under the plate, but it worked.
My ones in the 70 s were Miles out, That is why I was not bothered about trying to make a 4 leading job,
To me they were Scrap. Cheers Bill.
 

oexing

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Well - you won´t find oversized brake plate holes on Cerianis, Grimecas or Fontanas . . . .
So that tells me something . . . .

Vic
 

Shane998

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Did they work, I never tried that, I am sure it's the linings now, I have good alloy plates on my ex L/ning,
But they are still not a lot of good. Cheers Bill.
Never used them were in some parts I got but they looked just like Vibrac described. They are well done good bracing etc I've got casting which I hope to have machined this year for current project so I think lots of Lightning type plates made over the years IMG_2144.JPGIMG_2144.JPG
 

vibrac

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I the original Slaters had scoops cast in these are later types I have some the original? or perhaps some later ones not have recessed holes for the scoop fixing screws
 

bmetcalf

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Will you have the pivots in the standard location or moved per ClevTrev recommendation?

Never used them were in some parts I got but they looked just like Vibrac described. They are well done good bracing etc I've got casting which I hope to have machined this year for current project so I think lots of Lightning type plates made over the years View attachment 28481View attachment 28481
 

Shane998

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Will you have the pivots in the standard location or moved per ClevTrev recommendation?
I don't have the skill to do a job like that so I've actually got a friend getting a set machined I'll get my set done at same time. I have lighting type front plates that I got fromVOC spares on my rapide and they work ok
 

davidd

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I think it is too much to call Trevor's findings recommendations. He found a variance in the numbers between the plate and drum and asked for explanations. I think he said on this forum that he never received any explanation. I know that Higgins felt that he explained the brakes had no faulty geometry based on a drawing he provided in MPH 628. Higgins maintained that arcing the linings would correct any minor misalignment with the center hole of the brake and reestablish parallel lining engagement with the drum face.

I have run some brake drum geometry by two engineers who could not make heads nor tails of the math. It is probably the most complex subject in motorcycle mechanics. As a result, I have been relegated to accepting the standard Vincent geometry as a given and focusing on following Trevor's course of action by reading the wear with an eye toward getting it right.

I think that Trevor's greatest contribution in the discussion of brakes has been pointing out that the brake shoes are not up to the job due to their wild flexing and bending under pressure. The shoes and steel backing plates will work for quite a while, but eventually the pivot pins will be bent and the shoes will be bent if they get hard use.

I originally thought that the original shoes could work if they were mated with very high friction linings. This could possibly increase the stopping power without pulling on the lever hard enough to distort the brake shoe. This does help. Ultimately, you are putting lipstick on a pig. I think it is worth using a sturdier shoe if you are going to invest money in new linings. Arcing seems to be mandatory.

The H48 plate is also inadequate. If the Godet shoe uses the stock plate, that is a problem.
DSCN3489.jpg
The material should be better. When you squeeze the lever and the cam falls into the groove, no amount of squeezing will provide more stopping power. I use shoes with hardened cast in plates.
Brake Shoe Fab 13.jpg
Unfortunately, stronger shoes may overpower the pivot pins and aid in them in bending permanently....

David
 

Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Interesting, Reading David's bit, First I thought maybe a thicker plate on the end of the shoe, Would be good,
Then I thought what would happen if there was no steel bit at all ?,
I know in time it make a groove, But would it be better leverage ?.
To me, It must be more easy to turn the cam spindle, If the shoe was shorter ?.
I am not clever and didn't go to school much, Just my thoughts.
Cheers Bill.
 

peter holmes

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I think if you leave the brake shoe faceplates off the pull off springs will not be under tension, and of course you will wear the cam face of the shoe quicker, I think the club supply those faceplates in stainless steel, or someone did, maybe Ron Kemp, that should work harden anyway, the standard brakes aren't that bad really, just could be better.
 

chankly bore

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
I was not the first to suggest a re-design involving a cross-brace on the pivot pins and a corresponding narrowing of the pivot eyes to accommodate this; there was an article in M.P.H. many years ago. Has anyone done this?
 

oexing

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
BMW had their own ideas about this lever design, from the fifties Earles fork types all the way to /5 series all tls front brakes. My photos show new brake shoes on top of a /5 type brake plate. Note how the ends of the twin leading shoes have protruding section, no steel cap there. The brake lever finger is at the TDC resp. BDC , so to say so, there is only minimal friction and rubbing motion onto the shoe ends. I will utilize these shoes for another project of dual brake drums on the B-Rapides - but these will have 200 mm diameter - four leading shoe brakes then on the front. The Bramptons will have torque anchors brazed in at a higher position between tubes, not the poor hook at the bottom lug.

Vic

P1050631.JPG

P1050635.JPG
 

Shane998

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Perhaps dont move the pivots if you have enough money to buy the Godet braced brake shoes as I have been told they already incorporate the adjustment
View attachment 28486
Thanks for photo another interesting option Luckily I have enough shoes although one set don't look exactly the same as the stock vincent ones I'm familiar with I know it costs a lot to buy any new shoes. I was discussing this cost with a friend who casts and machines many parts and if he had ever looked at making shoes His reply was wouldn't it be easier to fabricate from sheet metal like car brake shoes
 

vibrac

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
The spares company were looking at steel brake shoes at one point
With regard to Brampton strength a fellow competitor at the hill climb last week had 8" brakes on Brampton forks it made me wince a bit remembering how Mr Kemp bent his lower fork with racing plates and am4
 

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