kickstart slips

[GrantAndrew]

Hi, when kicking my dads egli vincent over the kickstart mechanism sometimes slips and has no resistance like it misses a cog. it only happens sometimes not on every kick. would this be something simple or will it be needing parts?
thanks.

 

[deejay499]

There are a number of things that it might be. The kickstart gears, G46 & G 47 could have worn mating teeth ( most likely problem) or bushes. A lot of us put two G48 springs behind the 46 gear, at least I always have.

Good luck with it, Dave

 

[Alan J]

It sure does hurt when it slips!!

 

[GrantAndrew]

I know its no joke.

It sure does hurt when it slips!!

 

[john998]

Hello, still limping after trying to start the outfit after 2 years lay up. 45 years of starting Vincent's and I still get caught. Regards John.

 

[Bill Thomas]

Evening all, I know not many people agree, But I start my bikes by just dropping the valve lifter, Wherever the flywheels are, I find it's a lot less stress on all the bits and my legs. All the best Bill.

 

[john998]

Hello Bill, I use the same method, it works fine on a well set up machine. If it is been difficult as my outfit was, finding the right compression helps. Part of my problem was a sump full of straight 40' oil and a temperature of 5c.
Regards John.

 

[Bill Thomas]

Hello John, We should know better after all these years !! I got my old l/ning rep going sunday, I have put 28mm carb's on it, Must be getting old !! I locked it up now I can't find the key, Who's a silly old sod. Your place was on the news down south, About how cold it was, Hope spring comes soon for you, Look after your self, Bill.

 

[deejay499]

GrantAndrew. The advice on starting by turning the engine and dropping the valve lifter is good. It takes all the strain off the shafts and gears and your leg if it does slip. Been doing it that way since 1962 and I only weigh 11 stone.

 

[Tom Gaynor]

Grant's original problem sounds to me as though either the G101 bush is well-worn, allowing G46 to tilt and thus not engage properly, or that a new G48 spring is needed. Or both. If G82, the kickstart ratchet, does not fully engage with G46, then it tilts unless G101 prevents it. I made a bronze G101. The original was oilite, had almost worn through. Francois Grosset told me that he has seen G46's that appear totally wrecked, no single tooth intact, but that still grip perfectly. However if G46 tilts...then it's best if you planned to have no more children anyway. Please do not ask how I came by my knowledge. They say the memory of the intensity of pain fades: they lie.

Robert Watson says he just kicks and drops the lifter. Robert however won't mind me saying (I hope) that he is A BIG CHAP, and I am not. It took me an age to find the right technique for kicking. It turned out to be to find the SECOND compression, DO NOT ease over, lift valve lifter, kick and drop lifter almost simultaneously. Prior to this I'd religiously eased it over both compressions, delivered the traditional LSK, and 9 times out of 10 was rewarded with the deafening silence that attends a Vincent failing to start. Then my knee would begin to give notice to quit. Which is why I now start courtesy of la jambe de grenouille, and merely press the red button. Or le bouton rouge, as you prefer.

 

[timetraveller]

Sorry to have to disagree with Tom's starting technique. I speak as a man at least as vertically challenged as Tom ( small and imperfectly formed, thats me). Once the trick of just holding the valve lifter up, taking a firm down wards prod and letting go of the valve lifter part way down the stroke is learned life is easier all the way round. It is easier on you and the kick start mechanism. No more fiddling around trying to find where top dead center is on one of the cylinders. Just get on with it and if it does not start within a few kicks then something is wrong. Watch several people at a Vincent gathering to see how peoples techniques vary and then decide which one is for you.

 

[timetraveller]

Hi David, I have gone back and re-read Tom's piece and you might be right. It is the bit about easing it over and finding the rear cylinder etc. which has me confused.. I just lift the valve lifter, turn the engine over a few times to make sure everything is free and then just push down hard on the kick starter without paying any attention to where the engine rotation is and let go of the valve lifter half way through the down stroke. It works for me and does not put undue strain on any of the kick starter parts. Being one of natures shorter people I find Dave Hills center stand a real asset in this as I can leave the bike on the stand and stand on the left hand footrest to give me extra height.

 

[Tom Gaynor]

What I do (or did, see below) is kick it through a couple of times, find first compression (after the "long" stroke), ease over that (using valve lifter) to second compression, and stop there. What I used to do was ease over that too, then kick. (And kick and kick and kick and...) Now sitting on second compression, piston BTDC, pull the lifter and kick simultaneously, releasing the lifter as fast as poss. Quite why starting the kick earlier in the "cycle" should work so well, I don't know, but 1) it feels slightly different and 2) it works nine times out of ten. Or no fewer than seven anyway.
In fact what I now do, having bought a Yuasa YTX14H-BS battery, the H indicating 20% more cranking power than the one without the H, is push the la bouton rouge, even when the outside temperature is 7 deg, and the motor is cold. And BINGO! She lives! And so does the battery - the non-H model was on it's knees after two attempts. OK in Italy in summer, but not Scotland in winter. The bad news is that it costs about £90 - but money well spent if you live in a cold climate.

Sods Law: after oodles of research, and taking years off the life of my knee, I find the reliable way to kick the beast, and having done so, find how to eliminate the NEED to kick it...

 

[Hugo Myatt]

What I do (or did, see below) is kick it through a couple of times, find first compression (after the "long" stroke), ease over that (using valve lifter) to second compression, and stop there. What I used to do was ease over that too, then kick. (And kick and kick and kick and...) Now sitting on second compression, piston BTDC, pull the lifter and kick simultaneously, releasing the lifter as fast as poss. Quite why starting the kick earlier in the "cycle" should work so well, I don't know, but 1) it feels slightly different and 2) it works nine times out of ten. Or no fewer than seven anyway.
In fact what I now do, having bought a Yuasa YTX14H-BS battery, the H indicating 20% more cranking power than the one without the H, is push the la bouton rouge, even when the outside temperature is 7 deg, and the motor is cold. And BINGO! She lives! And so does the battery - the non-H model was on it's knees after two attempts. OK in Italy in summer, but not Scotland in winter. The bad news is that it costs about £90 - but money well spent if you live in a cold climate.

Sods Law: after oodles of research, and taking years off the life of my knee, I find the reliable way to kick the beast, and having done so, find how to eliminate the NEED to kick it...

Tom,

Finding that I now need a convenient 'mounting block' or at least a high kerb to start the beast and having an electric starter ready to fit what other two elements do you use, i.e. ignition system and electrical generator?

Hugo

 

[Graham Smith]

test test test

 

[Tom Gaynor]

Hugo: Alton generator, and magneto. The Alton has given no problems that weren't self-inflicted (see below) but I suspect that a decent 12 volt dynamo with a solid state regulator would be perfectly adequate. The mag was rebuilt by Dave Lindsley (it was 53 years old, and I inadvertently administered the coup de grace by using resistor plugs AND caps...), and possibly even more importantly, I bought a new ATD from Roy Price. The old one I consigned to the box ("Vincent spares") that already has five clapped out ATD's in it.
I think that Francois developed his distributor largely because an ATD that does not reliably return to fully retarded promotes back-fires, not conducive to long starter life. Whatever, the new RP ATD made an immediate and very noticeable difference to the bike's tractability in traffic. In fact it is FUN to ride in traffic.
(I did use Francois's spruiter for a while, and while it worked perfectly, I was hampered by a total absence of any talent for vehicle electrics. So I returned to what I understood, which, God knows, isn't much.)

 

[Hugo Myatt]

Thanks Tom,
I, too, have standard mag and Alton (mag rebuilt by Dave Lindsley but many years ago). However I have a new BTH mag waiting in the wings. I also have a box of duff ATDs with wildly varying amounts of advance. Unfortunately a new one I bought some time ago does not appear to have the same taper as the mag shaft. No matter what I try it will not pull up tight so for the time being I am having to stick with the old one in situ. I actually like the original magneto and the bike starts well on the kickstart at present unless I am having a particularly timid day when it can kick back.
Hugo.

 

[Bill Thomas]

Hello Hugo, That trouble you had with a taper, I had a few years ago. What I found was the taper was ok but the hollow bolt was touching the end of the taper on the shaft first,I put a drill up the end of the hollow bolt, only a few thou' deep and a few thou bigger than the hole was and it was ok, Just make sure the gears are inline after. All The Best Bill.

 

[Tom Gaynor]

Recollection brought about by your use of "timidity"...
I claim to have invented Zen starting, using elements of Zen archery (as I understood it). Do not make eye contact with the target. Stride confidently up to it, and excluding from your mind any trace of doubt that there may be a sub-optimal outcome, kick.
Excluding doubt becomes exponentially more difficult with every kick, until the balance of power flips, and the erstwhile target spits the would-be Zen artist into a low earth orbit.
But it once worked for an entire week in IoM, in 1975. Being 35 years younger may have been a factor.
To my mind the big advantage of the B-TH is a solid-state advance. However I've seen lots of guys in race paddocks trying to recapture the black smoke that is the heart of trick ignition systems, and has now escaped, so I'm sticking with the mag. (I haven't heard any bad news at all about B-TH, but right now it isn't on the must-have list.)

 

[Hugo Myatt]

Thanks Bill. That sounds like it might be the answer.

Tom, food for thought although the thirty-five years and more fragile bones certainly enter into it.

Hugo