ET: Engine (Twin) Kick Start Indexing Problem

fogrider

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That's an excellent review Vic. I see that the extra 25 thou I figured would only go in if there was at least that much 'slogger'. I tried a half-cut tooth, some time ago but found no real benefit. The best result was the leading tooth on the quadrant cut back at an angle on its' trailing face.(but retaining full height). That seems the least chance of end to end jamming as the two points are the thinnest on contact. I did spot that thinning/sharpening the teeth on the small gear would be a benefit but assumed the reduction in contact might result in damage to the gear.
Interesting problem, thanks for the comments and suggestions.
Regards, Terry.
 

oexing

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I was thinking about reducing the contact faces from sharpening the teeth but most wear and load is nearer the bottom of these. The very top of the teeth is retained and still case hardened.
Yes, the critical thing is the pointed tops of first tooth on the quadrant and all on the small gear. So half size does not do it but sharpening . I started on the BMW quadrant with the original tooth size and went lower in steps but yes,only the pointy feature would reduce the chance to jam.

Vic
 

Monkeypants

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There was an article in mph discussing this problem with the Comet kicker.
I applied those methods to my problematic Rapide kick starter and I'm happy to say it now jams perhaps once in a hundred kicks rather than one in five or ten.
Prior to using the MPH info I tried gradually reducing the first tooth on the pawl.
After many tries and no success the first tooth was eventually reduced to nothing, at which point things jammed on the second tooth.
Before using the MPH info I flipped the pawl over so that it had a full first tooth again.
I tried it that way without shaping, but it jammed almost every time.
As I recall, very little shaping was needed to stop the jamming. That is a plus because this way you get a full kick, the first tooth is doing its job to start rotation.
The article was in MPH about four years ago from memory.
MSVH might recall the article. He and I both had the same kickstart jamming problem on our Rapides back then.
Both bikes are cured or greatly improved with the MPH Comet tooth shaping method.


Glen
 
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Martyn Goodwin

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Non-VOC Member
There was an article in mph discussing this problem with the Comet kicker.
I applied those methods to my problematic Rapide kick starter and I'm happy to say it now jams perhaps once in a hundred kicks rather than one in five or ten.
Prior to using the MPH info I tried gradually reducing the first tooth on the pawl.
After many tries and no success the first tooth was eventually reduced to nothing, at which point things jammed on the second tooth.
Before using the MPH info I flipped the pawl over so that it had a full first tooth again.
I tried it that way without shaping, but it jammed almost every time.
As I recall, very little shaping was needed to stop the jamming. That is a plus because this way you get a full kick, the first tooth is doing its job to start rotation.
The article was in MPH about four years ago from memory.
MSVH might recall the article. He and I both had the same kickstart jamming problem on our Rapides back then.
Both bikes are cured or greatly improved with the MPH Comet tooth shaping method.


Glen
see post #2 in this topic - its the same material
 

Monkeypants

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Funny I read that and thought it similar to the MPH article, except for the amount removed.
I did not take nearly that much off of tooth 1.
Did you submit the MPH article? If so, my right knee thanks you!

Glen
 
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oexing

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No matter what you do to the first gear tooth on the quadrant, it will jam with a shape that is not pointy. As I showed in my posting above, I had reduced tooth height in several steps but no joy. I could still find situations when gears jammed top to top. The ONLY way to minimise a likely hood of jamming is to sharpen the first gear, filed or not, on the quadrant, to a pointy shape so in operation you will have to position its top EXACTLY to meet one pointy tooth top of the kickstart gear. Both components pointy you will be challenged to jam them as shown in my video clip above .
The MPH photo really only confirms the pointy shape idea, polishing any sloping areas may be nice but not essential. The real trick is to have the top point stoned smooth so it will rather slip in any direction than jam.
Please test your ideas on your bikes by carefully trying to find a position of jamming, the wider any face on gear tops is , the easier you will get a jam.
The kickstart gear has wide tooth tops which is design flaw really. This has to be corrected with next production, basically. But I will not tell them at Spares Co myself, seems they won´t listen to the people, matter of pride maybe.

Vic
 

Monkeypants

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I applied some synthetic grease to the pawl and pinion as well, making sure the tooth tops were coated.
The grease just adds to the slippery factor for the tooth tops.
It stays in place for a long time and can be reapplied thru the access hole.


Glen
 

Gary Gittleson

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It looks like I will have to remove my kickstart cover and examine things. In 15,000 miles of riding my D Rapide I have never experienced a kickstart jam. On the other hand, it was a pretty common experience on my wife's R69S. (All that was involved to resolve that one was to pull the clutch in and give it a soft kick.) If I get around to removing the cover, I'll post what I find, with pictures as necessary.
 

Martyn Goodwin

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Non-VOC Member
Funny I read that and thought it similar to the MPH article, except for the amount removed.
I did not take nearly that much off of tooth 1.
Did you submit the MPH article? If so, my right knee thanks you!

Glen
Hi Glen,

Yes - the OVR article was the first published - and MPH was a reprint of it. All written AFTER a lot of trial and error work with my Burman box - Note: I still get the kick start locking but now its like 1 in 200 not every second attempt. Now if it sticks DO NOT try to force it - that will just flatten the top of the clashing teeth. Put the bike in gear then rock it back n forth to release the jamb.

Martyn
 
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