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H&H on 24th June

vibrac

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Offered for sale on line
A Norvin in 2 parts I note there is a deep groove in the nearside S/A lug on the crankcase but at least its not been cut off
There is also a Comet, comments on prices set ?
 

kerry

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Expected prices in this H&H auction and Mathewsons next month to me seem to bear no resemblance to reality,
Mathewsons have a nice black Knight at £60,000 guide price ? A Rapide at £42500 to £46000 ! Bonhams the month after are expecting £20,000 upwards for Comet's and other high estimates. T120 bonnies are now selling for under £7000 and most bikes seem to be at least 20% down, maybe we will have a better idea after these next auctions, I cannot see a Knight at £60,000 plus I assume plus premium ! I have no idea on a Norvin
 

John Oakes

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Expected prices in this H&H auction and Mathewsons next month to me seem to bear no resemblance to reality,
Mathewsons have a nice black Knight at £60,000 guide price ? A Rapide at £42500 to £46000 ! Bonhams the month after are expecting £20,000 upwards for Comet's and other high estimates. T120 bonnies are now selling for under £7000 and most bikes seem to be at least 20% down, maybe we will have a better idea after these next auctions, I cannot see a Knight at £60,000 plus I assume plus premium ! I have no idea on a Norvin
I agree with Kerry that some of these estimates seem beyond ambitious. A lot of very average / poor / dodgy bikes end up in auctions and I think that now only top notch or very original/rare examples have any chance of getting high prices. At the end of the day I think a lot of classic enthusiasts are suffering a bit of auction fatigue in that there are so many of them and in reality auctions are always BUYER BEWARE in that why would anyone really want to pay top book price for a bike they can't startup, can't hear running, can't test ride and can't talk to the owner about. For me you should only ever pay 'bottom book' or trade prices at an auction unless it is a bike so rare you can't buy it privately or from a dealer. Therefore I think that any prices realised at auction shouldn't necessarily be the benchmark for the true market value of any model of bike.
 

Albervin

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
After the disappointing prices in Vegas earlier this year it seemed the market for classic vehicles was in a downward spiral. Earlier this month there was an on-line auction held over several days; it featured cars, motorbikes and collectable numberplates. Only two lots were passed in and nearly every lot sold above mid-estimate. It is interesting that many purchases were made in cash. In Australia a company has to make a report if a cash payment of $10,000 or above is made; many people paid in multiple transactions of $9,990! Make of that what you will.
 

peter holmes

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Ill gotten gains I would suggest, but to no avail paying in smaller lots to avoid compulsory divulgence, if you know about this ruse the chances are the taxman does also.
 

vibrac

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
True story
I was at Bonhams in the eighty's I was in a queue to pay for some bits the guy in front of me asked "did you bid on that Egli?" I said yes he said " I bought that and the other Vincent - is it a B or a C? I am not sure of bikes i usually by Rollers but I have run out of space" I told him it was a C , When we got to the desk the girl asked his name, "Put down Smith" he said, felt in his various pockets and shelled out 10-15 K in notes to pay for his purchases, it took some time.
 

kerry

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
2 years ago I paid a Gentleman £12000 cash for a Velocette, we went to pay it into his bank who would NOT accept it unless I could show statements showing I had withdrawn it from a bank which I had ! I did not have that with me so we then went to a branch of my bank nearby, paid it back in and my bank then transferred to his ! All to do with money laundering, also its harder to pay online now over certain amounts because the banks quiet rightly think it could be a scam and carry out phone calls and security checks which can take up to 3 hours. Also there is a new maximum of £30,000 for most transfers,

Back to prices, they are down approx 20% and I still await with interest the auction results,
A knight for £60, 000+ ? maybe rarer models like these will get more like they used to, A Knight more than a Rapide and a Prince more than a Shadow ? Are these fewer buyers going that way, what about the investors now have they dropped out because the market IS falling, ?
 

vibrac

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
A friend of mine came over from abroad to get lots of bits for his British bikes,we picked him up from Heathrow when we got to our nearest little town he said "I need some cash for Stafford tomorrow" we went in the local bank, he had travelers checks was that Ok? the teller said "yes", So my friend started signing the cheques and passing them over, when we got to 2K she said "how much more do you need?"
"About 20k" he said, she got the manager "we haven't got the money!" he said and that was that. So out we went and there was a small travel agents down the street, in desparation we went in on the off chance and explained the situation.
"I can do that" said the lady agent "but I charge a big commission" we went back 2 hours later with the travelers cheques expecting a pile of cash, but the Agent got up "lets go" she said and off we trouped with the agent and her cheque.... back to the same bank!
It was a wonderful scene but we got the cash...
 

kerry

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I have been watching the online H&H auction today, I saw about 30 bikes go through, only 2 projects sold and one bike, I hope they feel embarrassed by their silly high estimates, and Mathewsons next month are as silly perhaps ? £60,000 for a Knight ? Things are bad out there, my Venom Clubman has finally just sold, one of the very best genuine ones in the UK, Cost me £10350 in 2016 I got £9300 and feel lucky to have got that. Vincents though are not doing as bad as most, the Comet reached £16,000 estimated 18-19500 looked ok but UFM not original stamping so not a bad price for something investors and others would not buy. Would not better reflective estimates be advisable ? Kerry.
 

vibrac

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I dont think we should be so moved by the results
With old bikes people like to have a good physical look at what they are buying (eg Bonhams know that and are waiting)
if it was a modern tin box its pretty formulaic otherwise jokers like we buy any car . com would not exist
I havent bought a classic on line but if I did I would have a good margin below what I would bid in a normal auction to take away the sting if I got it really wrong. and this is reflected in remote Ebay prices as well
 

kerry

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
The Norvin , I forgot to mention, estimate £30,000 to £35000 highest bid was £18,000. how far out can you be. Bonhams I think are also doing closed auctions now, almost no viewing, a local chap has 3 Vincents in, I bet he is hoping for better than H&H, twice cancelled already for Stafford ! The bikes don't even go to the auction they stay with the seller. Kerry.
 

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