Ethanol going to 10%... the rot sets in for good

A_HRD

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It's a year since anyone posted here, but I bought 20 litres of Esso 97 Octane "Synergy" Premium Unleaded today. Just as I was finishing-up, I saw the recently-introduced stickers on the fuel-pumps - and on mine it had an E5 sticker. Several people heard my yell of expletives on the forecourt!

So when I got home, after searching-out Esso Customer-Service phone numbers, I spent 15 minutes talking to people who didn't know what I was talking about - but eventually was given 0207 136 1798 and found a very helpful "Fuel Tech Team". It turns out that the E5 sticker on the pump is correct and meets EU Directives. It means that there is not more than 5% Ethanol in the fuel. So I asked how much there really is in the "Synergy" and the answer was immediate: There is none at all (i.e. zero - which is less than 5%:rolleyes:) and there are no plans to change that. So I asked why not use an 'E0' sticker on the pump? Answer - that wouldn't comply with EU regulations!! o_O (Next time I'm at my local Esso I'll be taking my felt-tip marker-pen and correcting the nonsense!). ;)

Meanwhile, as reported before, it was confirmed that in certain areas of Cornwall, Devon and Teeside upto 5% Ethanol is added to the "Synergy".

So there you have it - but don't stay complacent too long - it likely won't last.....

Peter B
 

ClassicBiker

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Well the American Motorcycle Association here is fighting a losing battle against the Environmental Protection Agency against year round availability of E15. Which is great for farmers and other growers of grain that is used in the production of ethanol. But sucks for motorcycles, ATVs, boats, and power equipment as none of this stuff is approved to run on it. Using is will violate warranties, damage engines, and is a Federal Crime. Only cars and trucks manufactured since 2006 are able to use it. So one question that comes to mind is why haven't current manufacturers of everything else considered that their products may need to be able to use this crap? Surely those vehicle manufacturers who produce cars and motorcycles could read the writing on the wall or were they just hoping the problem would go away? As for those of us who choose to use vehicles produced well before 2006 all we can do is lobby for ourselves (our elected officials have demonstrated their lack of concern for our cause), look for materials that we can make replacement parts from that are impervious to ethanol, frequent fuel stations that provide ethanol free fuel and hope the fuel producers take pity on us and continue to supply suitable fuel. www.pure-gas.org if you live in the U.S. or Canada.
Steven
 

Robert Watson

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And my bitch is as follows.......

There are a few brands here that supply ethanol free premium fuel, and all but one dispense through "Blender" pumps. You know the ones that you push a button to select what grade you want. That's probably fine if you are putting 60 or 100 litres in a tank (yes we dispense fuel in litres here) but if you are putting say 10 litres to top up your smallish motorcycle tank, the first 1-3 litres is whatever the last guy pumped through the hose. I have always meant to go to the pump service people here and ask just how much that is beyond what we can calculate in the hose we can see. Of course the one brand that does use a separate dispensing hose is the most expensive, but hey, it's going in my Vincent, and my lawnmower and my chainsaw and my water pumps and my generator....................
 

ClassicBiker

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And my bitch is as follows.......

There are a few brands here that supply ethanol free premium fuel, and all but one dispense through "Blender" pumps. You know the ones that you push a button to select what grade you want. That's probably fine if you are putting 60 or 100 litres in a tank (yes we dispense fuel in litres here) but if you are putting say 10 litres to top up your smallish motorcycle tank, the first 1-3 litres is whatever the last guy pumped through the hose. I have always meant to go to the pump service people here and ask just how much that is beyond what we can calculate in the hose we can see. Of course the one brand that does use a separate dispensing hose is the most expensive, but hey, it's going in my Vincent, and my lawnmower and my chainsaw and my water pumps and my generator....................

Robert,
You've pointed out two other annoying thing in all this. Blender pumps. The EPA's response to concerns about possible mis-fueling from blender pumps is pump a minimum of 4 gallons, which is roughly 16 liters, when refueling. That's all well and good when filling up my car which has a 12 or 13 gallon tank. So if the guy in front used E15 and I want E0 I only only 4.5% of my fuel is ethanol at most. But I paid the premium price for all 13 gallons and a third of it is E15. Now to bikes. My tank doesn't hold 13 gallons it holds 4 at most. I paid for premium and got the residue from the last fueling, even though I selected the premium button.
So I mis-fuel and pay a premium to do so.
Steven
 

ClassicBiker

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Just remembered another thing. For awhile the wife drove a 2010 Chevrolet Avalanche, which is flex fuel vehicle and supposed to be able to work on anything from E0 to E85. One day she comes in and tells me it's acting up badly. So I take it for a drive and it's a mess. Won't run properly, seems ready to die at any second, no pickup. So to much electronic wizardry for me to deal with, so off to the dealer. They diagnose the problem as it has been mis-fueled. Correcting the problem and resetting all the electronics is a $400.00 job. I have no choice as she needs the thing. So when I pick it up I pay and ask the service what exactly they mean by mis-fueled. He tells me I must have inadvertently put high alcohol content fuel in it. So I ask him what he means by high alcohol fuel. He tells me anything over E10. So I ask if E85 is high alcohol, he tells me of course it is and that I shouldn't put that in it as it isn't designed to run on that. So I say to him if E85 is bad for it and it isn't designed to run on it why does it says "Flex Fuel" on the bumper and the gas cap say E85 capable and the manual say running on up to fuel containing up to 85% alcohol acceptable. At that point he turned and walked away from me without answering.
My take is this. Alcohol is hygroscopic, it absorbs water out of the atmosphere. The specific gravity of alcohol is greater than gasoline. Water is greater still. Water and alcohol mix more readily than either do with gasoline. So the higher the alcohol content of the fuel the more readily it will absorb water out of the atmosphere and sink to the lowest point (where the fuel pick up naturally is) and now the engine is trying to operate on water. So one way or another fuel with a high alcohol content found it's way into the fuel tank and the alcohol water mix precipitated out of solution and to the bottom of the fuel tank and that is when engine started running rough.
Steven
 

oexing

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This does not seem very conclusive to me. You can mix alcohol/ethanol with water at any percentage without separation of water in the solution. Like you don´t see water at the bottom of your whiskey bottle - or any other beverage with alcohol in it.
There may be some problem with alcohol added fuel in so far as it is food for some types of bacteria and its effects to the burn characteristics.

Vic
 

ClassicBiker

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If you take a sample of gasoline and mix in a measure of water, the water and ethanol will precipitate out. Alcohol and water will stay in solution, that's why you don't see stratification in your drinks. Water and gasoline will not mix. The water will draw alcohol out of solution with the gasoline. Pour gasoline into a graduated cylinder, pour in water. You'll see a line where they meet but don't mix. Shake and let sit. If there was ethanol in the fuel it will mix the water and the line will move.
Steven
 
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