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dynamo drive sealing

lindie

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
good afternoon. was wondering if someone might post a photo of part no et164 or possibly the item in situ in their primary housing please. i'm running out of other oil leaks and wouldn't mind eradicating this one as well. the oil slinger is there but the oil going through my dynamo is a concern. thanks for your time, glen.
 

John Cone

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Is the oil actually going into the dynamo or do you mean the oil is escaping betwwen the the primary case and the dynamo? I think most people will agree that silicon is the answer. Remove the dynamo and cleam up the surfaces of the dynamo and the primary case. Before refitting the dynamo you need to apply a large bead of silicon sealant around the endplate of the dynamo, and while it's still soft refit the dynamo and adjust the sprocket so that the backlash is correct and also that the sprocket is in the center of the middle link of the primary chain. Refit the dynamo saddle and tighten making sure your adjustments have not altered and the silicon should of been squeezed out of the joint. It's worth fitting a sealed bearing in the drive endplate of the dynamo while it's off. There are some differences in the way that the primary cases were machined around the dynamo hole depending on the model or year, mines a "D" and the method i used works for me.
 

lindie

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
hi john. the dynamo is filling up beautifully. it was chockers with the stuff when i first pulled it off last year. found the same last weekend when i stripped her down for the jg regulator. my parts book shows what appears to be the other component of the oil slinger arrangement but it ain't in there. know thy beast gives a sectioned view of it as well but i'm interested to see what she looks like in the flesh if i can. it's likely not a total cure but better than missing parts till i sort out an alternative.

the bearings in the dynamo are 200 miles old and i'd rather not hoik them as it was a 60 buck part and took three days to procure. i'll live happily with some runoff but the current situation is more a bucket under an umbrella with a hole cut out of it.

cheers, glen.
 
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John Cone

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Hi Glen

Just had a butchers at Know thhy Beast, did mean that the tapered adaptor PD32 is missing or the oil ring ET164. this is what i meant when i said some cases are different. On a "D" it does not have PD32 because the casting had not been machined out to a taper it had been left flat.
 

ogrilp400

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
G'day Glenn,
ET164 is a pressed tin affair. A washer with a spigot on it or a spigot with a flange on it how ever you want to call it. Not sure that it does too much other than present a flat face up against the the oil slinger. I Araldited mine in about 31 years ago and it has been there getting a free ride around the country ever since. As for PD 32, I have never ever seen one. Its a real belts and braces affair in there but there is room literally for a sealing arrangement that does seal. I had a Lucas E3L with a sealed drive end bearing on the Norvin for most of the past. That fixed oil getting into the generator. Between the generator and the back of the PD I machined up a 1/8th thick walled tube about 1/2" long. This pressed onto the shallow spigot on the Lucas generator. I then cut a 1/8" thick neoprene cork penny washer that is sandwiched between the tube and the back of the PD. Liberally coat in silastic and push the generator hard over against the back of the PD. This seals it up.
Now it has been a very long time since I have seen a Miller generator but I seem to remember that the Miller has a rounded projection, housing the bearing. Could a similar thick walled tube be machined up to be sandwiched between the the generator and the PD? Perhaps then some sort of seal could be run in this tube to keep the oil out of the generator?
I am surprised the the generator bearing cost so much. I think it is the same size as the Lucas bearing and they came as a sealed bearing and certain didn't cost that much. Something in the order of 5 to 10 dollars.


Phelps.
 

lindie

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
G'day Glenn,
.
Now it has been a very long time since I have seen a Miller generator but I seem to remember that the Miller has a rounded projection, housing the bearing.


I think it is the same size as the Lucas bearing.
Phelps.


i think inadvertently you might have just solved something i've been puzzling over for a year or so.
 
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lindie

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
thankyou phelps. i think i'll put an et164 on order and look into how best to seal the dynamo itself as well.

does the 3.5 inch D9S miller run a felt around the threaded bearing retainer collar and trapped on the outside of the housing by the PD19 washer?

my spares 3 and a half has a depression cast into the drive end plate on the outside edge that looks like it may hold such a felt as i found in the inside of the 3 inch D6 type housing. that might end up being half my cure as there was never one there before, and i wasn't aware there was to be one.

thanks for any advice on this as i've mainly gone off of what came with the bike wherever there weren't clear pictures or drawings to go by.
 

Len Matthews

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
A comment if I may concerning sealing the dynamo against the back of the sprocket housing. Oil loss from here is usually due to excess oil in the primary chaincase. It's well known that most Twins have a tendancy for oil to pass through the drive-side main bearings necessitating the need to drain off the surplus via the level screw.If you seal the dynamo in the way some have described you will prevent the primary chaincase from breathing so any pressure build up will be forced into the dynamo. (Or into the gearbox, won't it Hugo Myatt?!) The felt ring in a Miller dyno won't stop much, far better to use sealed armature bearings which are readily available from bearing stockists.
 
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ogrilp400

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Ah it comes back to me slowly now. Yes there was a felt seal in there but as Len says it did little. I remember squeezing an O ring in there that worked better but yes, the best result was to use a sealed bearing. Even with minimal oil in the PD case it still dribbled a bit. I you want to see just how much oil gets thrown up into the generator gear cavity, just start the bike with the generator drive cover off. All the oil in the primary chain case will be out in about .2 of a second.

Phelps
 

vince998

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
A comment if I may concerning sealing the dynamo against the back of the sprocket housing. Oil loss from here is usually due to excess oil in the primary chaincase. It's well known that most Twins have a tendancy for oil to pass through the drive-side main bearings necessitating the need to drain off the surplus via the level screw.If you seal the dynamo in the way some have described you will prevent the primary chaincase from breathing so any pressure build up will be forced into the dynamo. (Or into the gearbox, won't it Hugo Myatt?!) The felt ring in a Miller dyno won't stop much, far better to use sealed armature bearings which are readily available from bearing stockists.

I can confirm lens statement to breathing through the dynamo.
I fit the E3L to my D, line up and secure. I then remove the drive sprocket and drive boss (keyed to the armature shaft) and seal the dynamo to primary mating surface from the inside with silicon. (I’ve tried the bead of silicon on the mating surfaces trick a couple of times, but I end up with silicon everywhere and it still leaks afterwards!!)

The last time I inspected the dynamo, it looked as though it had laid on the sea bed for 10 years! Inside was full of rust, and the bandage wrapping the coil had almost totally disintegrated.
The primary is definitely breathing through the dynamo, and although I have no problems with oil in the dynamo, the air being transported is carrying a lot of condensation (I’ve ridden 200 miles in winter before now, and on looking into the primary to adjust the chain, have found the oil to be milky brown (emulsion?), so condensation is a definitely problem.

Theoretically, if you could seal the primary effectively (dynamo, gearbox cover plate & detent housing, kick-start shaft tunnel etc) then the pressure in the primary would stay constant.
If no more gasses are travelling through the bearings, no more oil would be transported through the bearings and your primary oil level would stay relatively constant.

These are all unfortunately answers to the symptoms and not a solution for the cause.
This would be primary mainshaft seal or sealed bearing.

I’m looking at fitting a sealed bearing at the moment, but have yet to find a way of removing it from the mainshaft/housing without splitting the cases.
Anybody managed this before?
 

lindie

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
Ah it comes back to me slowly now. Yes there was a felt seal in there but as Len says it did little. I remember squeezing an O ring in there that worked better but yes, the best result was to use a sealed bearing. Even with minimal oil in the PD case it still dribbled a bit. I you want to see just how much oil gets thrown up into the generator gear cavity, just start the bike with the generator drive cover off. All the oil in the primary chain case will be out in about .2 of a second.

Phelps

will put the felt in as a preliminary as theres nought there at present.

Originally Posted by Len Matthews
Oil loss from here is usually due to excess oil in the primary chaincase. It's well known that most Twins have a tendancy for oil to pass through the drive-side main bearings necessitating the need to drain off the surplus via the level screw. "

will recheck the level as too much is a problem and it'll get topped up from the engine by the sound of it so any it leaks will be replenished. kind of pouring water from one bucket into another really isn't it.


vince998 "
Theoretically, if you could seal the primary effectively (dynamo, gearbox cover plate & detent housing, kick-start shaft tunnel etc) then the pressure in the primary would stay constant."

would be nice but the way it is now seems less breathing through the dynamo as blasting into. can't blame it really as with missing components odd crap is bound to occur.

thanks everyone for the suggestions thus far. glen.
 

Len Matthews

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
These pictures puzzle me. It looks as though this dynamo is a mixture of Miller and Lucas components.The Miller certainly does not have a Bakerlite end cap so is it a Liller or a Mucas?
 

lindie

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
puzzles me too. for instance, are the armatures between miller and lucas close enough in length to let this have been done? and are the field coil bolt spacings and clearances to the armature/coil similair enough that it could have worked? i've yet to have try and motor it so its an unknown at present.

i'm guessing you've not seen this before then either?

from the other post:

features of note are as follows.

casting numbers on the brush holder end 200717 above the letters F.R

said casting has nuts in hollows that meet up with the through bolts, and from photo's also the lucas type brush earth screw position.

only appears to have two wires exiting the field coil.

type d6 and a clockwise arrow on the drive end housing.

the plastic cap is a perfect fit on the brush holder end.

the armature has a keyway cut into it.

it also has a rough ground looking taper that takes a two pin type drive collar.

the coil housing has 82 stamped beside the number H7882 on the drive housing but no other stampings.

i've suspected for a while that it was made up of a lucas armature modded to take the miller drive method in a miller drive plate with the other end and components from a lucas. the coil housing may be miller too and possibly a lucas coil?

your mention that the two brands used the same bearing put me into the mood to strip it down again for photo's. has anyone ever seen this done before please?
 
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Hugo Myatt

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Chaincase oil

Len is right. I famously sealed every possible escape route for oil in my Rapide's chaincase and ended up with the oil level rising dramatically in the gearbox. The chaincase needs to breath and it does so through the dynamo drive. If you examine the Comet there is an enormous hole behind the clutch to allow the gearbox to swing for primary chain adjustment. However it doesn't leak, at least mine don't. On twins with Miller dynamos there is a dynamo locating washer (of varying thicknesses PD19, PD19/1 or PD19/2) between the dynamo bearing plate and the dynamo sprocket boss (PD16) in order to centralise the sprocket in the primary chain. This fits in the tapered recess at the back of the chaincase and reduces the size of the hole somewhat. Fitting a Lucas dynamo to a series B or C requires a tapered plug (once available as a spare) that does the same job but often needs reducing in thickness as no two chaincases or dynamos are the same.
 
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lindie

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
will see how the felt goes on sunday i believe. i'm hopefully heading out to fit new carb rubbers to dads suzuki and should be able to get at the dynamo while i'm there. must take a check of how much and often the level in the chaincase rises and see if the engine level is dropping from burning or just dumping through the main bearings. thanks for the hints, glen.
 
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