Indeed I have. I definitely do not recommend using them. They, like many other replacement capacitors that have come and gone over the years, are not rated to handle the high current pulses they will be subjected to by a magneto.
Detailed description of the restoration of a magneto
- Thread starter Magnetoman
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I certainly would recommend them (but then, my company manufactures the EasyCap condenser
). With regard to Magnetoman's comment, to quote one capacitor manufacturer, "Failure of an MLCC ..." (the type of capacitor used in the EasyCap) "... due to high dV/dt values is not generally recognised as a normal failure mechanism and hence dV/dt ratings are not normally quoted by manufacturers of MLCC’s." Have you actually tried one, Magnetoman?
The proof of the pudding is in the eating. The EasyCap was launched a year ago. Over 1,600 have been sold. A single one of those had a problem after a couple of miles, but we have not heard of a single instance of any other problems with them. Quite the opposite. Many customers can't believe how easily their machines now start. And they are all taken by the fact that if there is a problem with their magneto, they can check the condenser in a few minutes, just like an old battery-coil system, without having to dismantle the magneto totally yet again (or pay somebody else to do it).
Feel free to scan through our testimonials page http://www.brightsparkmagnetos.com/testimonials/
Cheers,
Ken.
(C Rapide)
Before proceeding, there is a history with Mr. Targett that is relevant. I posted the ~20 installments of my thread on the restoration of a magneto over a period of four months at:
http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=446733#Post446733
If you go to that thread you will find it is by far the most detailed description anywhere in print or on the web. As he is now doing here, Mr. Targett inserted himself into that thread to try to market his products. I replied to each of his posts politely, providing detailed explanations why the 10 cent capacitors he sells for $20 do not have the necessary specifications to survive long periods in the harsh electrical environment of a magneto, as well as why the remagnetization service he sells would leave magnetos with performance worse than if they were properly magnetized. You can go directly to my post describing the requirements on a capacitor at:
http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=455839#Post455839
and the requirements on a magnetizer at:
http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=460999#Post460999
Mr. Targett's responses to my thread became so sarcastic, mocking, and insulting, even going so far as to call me a liar, that the moderator interceded, removed his most outrageous posts, and locked the thread to keep him from continuing this behavior. I hope he does not repeat that disturbing behavior here. Inappropriate as it was there, it would be even more inappropriate here given that he is not even a member of the VOC.
The "Reply With Quote" button keeps acting like "Reply," so below I've used bold/italic to copy from Mr. Targett's post.
Have you actually tried one, Magnetoman?
I have not stepped out of a moving car because I have enough confidence in the laws of physics to know the negative consequences of doing so without actually having to do it. The same laws of physics are why I do not recommend using Mr. Targett's products. If you go to my magneto restoration thread you will see some of the extensive range of electrical test instrumentation I have brought to bear on this problem, and should be able to judge whether or not I have the technical expertise to make informed recommendations about these matters.
Over 1,600 have been sold. A single one of those had a problem after a couple of miles, but we have not heard of a single instance of any other problems with them.
No one has any way of verifying this claim. Also, I note that for a number of years less than a decade ago Independent Ignition Supplies sold a replacement capacitor with the claim "Modern substitute, very high specification, zero failure." Despite this claim, they failed in service. Still, it took a number of years before enough motorcyclists complained about failures for the supplier to cease selling them.
Many customers can't believe how easily their machines now start.
Until it fails, any capacitor of the appropriate capacitance will transform the behavior of a magneto having a bad capacitor. If someone can't believe how easy their bike starts with a new capacitor, they've forgotten how easy it used to start before their former one went bad.
The issue isn't whether replacing an old, failed capacitor with a new one will make a magneto work, it is how long that new capacitor will survive the high current pulses it will be subjected to. Any number of inappropriate replacement capacitors have been recommended and sold over the years, all of which eventually failed in service. These failures all could have been predicted based on the electrical specifications and physical properties of the capacitors.
And they are all taken by the fact that if there is a problem with their magneto, they can check the condenser in a few minutes, just like an old battery-coil system, without having to dismantle the magneto totally yet again
With a proper replacement capacitor the owner will not have to take the magneto apart for at least 40 years and/or 140,000 miles. And, whenever a magneto is taken apart, which must be done to install one of Mr. Targett's capacitors in the first place, it must be properly remagnetized if it is to regain full performance. Since the magneto has to be disassembled either way, my recommendation is to install a proper capacitor and then properly remagnetize it.
Feel free to scan through our testimonials page
Again, there is no way to independently verify such advertising material. And, again, the reason I do not recommend using Mr. Targett's 10 cent capacitors is the laws of physics, not unverifiable advertising. Or testimonials from people whose capacitors have not yet failed.
I have no financial stake in whether or not people believe what I have written is correct, or if they believe what Mr. Targett has written is correct. More than enough information is easily available on the links in this current thread for people to decide this for themselves. If Mr. Targett wishes to sell his products to members of the VOC, I urge him to take pay for an advertisement like other vendors do, rather than use this forum to tout his wares.
http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=446733#Post446733
If you go to that thread you will find it is by far the most detailed description anywhere in print or on the web. As he is now doing here, Mr. Targett inserted himself into that thread to try to market his products. I replied to each of his posts politely, providing detailed explanations why the 10 cent capacitors he sells for $20 do not have the necessary specifications to survive long periods in the harsh electrical environment of a magneto, as well as why the remagnetization service he sells would leave magnetos with performance worse than if they were properly magnetized. You can go directly to my post describing the requirements on a capacitor at:
http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=455839#Post455839
and the requirements on a magnetizer at:
http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=460999#Post460999
Mr. Targett's responses to my thread became so sarcastic, mocking, and insulting, even going so far as to call me a liar, that the moderator interceded, removed his most outrageous posts, and locked the thread to keep him from continuing this behavior. I hope he does not repeat that disturbing behavior here. Inappropriate as it was there, it would be even more inappropriate here given that he is not even a member of the VOC.
The "Reply With Quote" button keeps acting like "Reply," so below I've used bold/italic to copy from Mr. Targett's post.
Have you actually tried one, Magnetoman?
I have not stepped out of a moving car because I have enough confidence in the laws of physics to know the negative consequences of doing so without actually having to do it. The same laws of physics are why I do not recommend using Mr. Targett's products. If you go to my magneto restoration thread you will see some of the extensive range of electrical test instrumentation I have brought to bear on this problem, and should be able to judge whether or not I have the technical expertise to make informed recommendations about these matters.
Over 1,600 have been sold. A single one of those had a problem after a couple of miles, but we have not heard of a single instance of any other problems with them.
No one has any way of verifying this claim. Also, I note that for a number of years less than a decade ago Independent Ignition Supplies sold a replacement capacitor with the claim "Modern substitute, very high specification, zero failure." Despite this claim, they failed in service. Still, it took a number of years before enough motorcyclists complained about failures for the supplier to cease selling them.
Many customers can't believe how easily their machines now start.
Until it fails, any capacitor of the appropriate capacitance will transform the behavior of a magneto having a bad capacitor. If someone can't believe how easy their bike starts with a new capacitor, they've forgotten how easy it used to start before their former one went bad.
The issue isn't whether replacing an old, failed capacitor with a new one will make a magneto work, it is how long that new capacitor will survive the high current pulses it will be subjected to. Any number of inappropriate replacement capacitors have been recommended and sold over the years, all of which eventually failed in service. These failures all could have been predicted based on the electrical specifications and physical properties of the capacitors.
And they are all taken by the fact that if there is a problem with their magneto, they can check the condenser in a few minutes, just like an old battery-coil system, without having to dismantle the magneto totally yet again
With a proper replacement capacitor the owner will not have to take the magneto apart for at least 40 years and/or 140,000 miles. And, whenever a magneto is taken apart, which must be done to install one of Mr. Targett's capacitors in the first place, it must be properly remagnetized if it is to regain full performance. Since the magneto has to be disassembled either way, my recommendation is to install a proper capacitor and then properly remagnetize it.
Feel free to scan through our testimonials page
Again, there is no way to independently verify such advertising material. And, again, the reason I do not recommend using Mr. Targett's 10 cent capacitors is the laws of physics, not unverifiable advertising. Or testimonials from people whose capacitors have not yet failed.
I have no financial stake in whether or not people believe what I have written is correct, or if they believe what Mr. Targett has written is correct. More than enough information is easily available on the links in this current thread for people to decide this for themselves. If Mr. Targett wishes to sell his products to members of the VOC, I urge him to take pay for an advertisement like other vendors do, rather than use this forum to tout his wares.
Thanks, Magnetoman,
I've seen and tried more than a few failed attempts to remagnetize Lucas Mags. but, you're the 1st to say they should be done after assembly. As You just pointed out, I'm always amazed at number of "Shade Tree Engineers" who will stand their ground in the face of the knowledge of an expert on the subject.
Cheers, John (a Recovering Electrician)
I've seen and tried more than a few failed attempts to remagnetize Lucas Mags. but, you're the 1st to say they should be done after assembly. As You just pointed out, I'm always amazed at number of "Shade Tree Engineers" who will stand their ground in the face of the knowledge of an expert on the subject.
Cheers, John (a Recovering Electrician)
Not just say it needs to be done after assembly, have the data to back up that statement. Thanks to alnico, post-WWII magnetos can survive disassembly without requiring remagnetization in order to function, but they will not have their full output. Once up to speed that isn't too much of a problem, but it significantly increases the minimum rotation rate required to generate a spark. That's also not too much of a problem if you're an 18-year old kick-starting a Triumph 500 sparked by a K2F, but it is a problem if you're a 58-year old with a Vincent 1000 sparked by a KVF.
Assemble with a proper condenser, then remagnetize. Words to live by.
Yes, but the shape of the armature makes the proper orientation not too critical. Perfect alignment would place the core of the armature in a direct horizontal line between the N and S poles, but the shape of the armature gives you a fair amount of leeway in this orientation without having any detrimental effect whatever. All you need to do is to rotate the armature in the forward direction until the points are about to open, then rotate backwards by ~90-deg. I describe this at:
http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=460999#Post460999
Last edited:
Going back to your post #13, yes, Magnetoman, there is a history, and there are also two sides to this, which I will not go into here, other than to let all know that I did not call you a liar. What I did do was ask you several times to confirm that you had correctly quoted from a text book that you were using to support your arguments. Failing to receive a straight reply, I bought a copy of the book, and found that the book said something completely different. For another text book quote in support of your arguments, I tracked down a copy at my local university library and found that in that case too the book was talking about something completely different.
You haven’t tested a Brightspark EasyCap. You do not know what its dV/dt rating is. So, it’s unclear how you can apply the laws of physics to it.
You should remember, Magnetoman, that just because one supplier of magneto parts might make false claims, it doesn’t mean that they all do.
You’ve brought up the subject of magnetisation, Magnetoman. Despite what you said somewhere else, not all magnetos are the same in that respect. BTHs and many of the pre-war magnetos lose magnet strength if they are not keepered, and we keep them keepered between magnetisation and final assembly. Lucas magnetos (or at least the post-war ones) do not lose any significant magnet strength by having their armature removed because of their internal keeper, as described in Bosch’s 1920 patent GB171087. http://worldwide.espacenet.com/maxi...n_EP&FT=D&date=19230226&CC=GB&NR=171087A&KC=A Bosch’s words: By bringing the pole shoes nearer together the further advantage is obtained that the magnetic circuit is practically closed even when the armature is removed from the machine, for example, during repairs. This prevents demagnetisation of the magnets which would otherwise occur. Oddly, I’m not sure Bosch ever used that feature in their magnetos, but Lucas certainly did. As Lucas said in their workshop instructions for the KVF, Withdraw the armature from the magneto body. The high-energy magnet in the latter does not need a keeper across it; although a very small amount of energy is lost at the first removal of the armature, subsequent removals do not affect it. And later on, Normally, remagnetisation will not be necessary but, should it be considered so, full instructions will be found in Section D-6 of the Lucas Workshop Manual.
Ken.
You haven’t tested a Brightspark EasyCap. You do not know what its dV/dt rating is. So, it’s unclear how you can apply the laws of physics to it.
You should remember, Magnetoman, that just because one supplier of magneto parts might make false claims, it doesn’t mean that they all do.
You’ve brought up the subject of magnetisation, Magnetoman. Despite what you said somewhere else, not all magnetos are the same in that respect. BTHs and many of the pre-war magnetos lose magnet strength if they are not keepered, and we keep them keepered between magnetisation and final assembly. Lucas magnetos (or at least the post-war ones) do not lose any significant magnet strength by having their armature removed because of their internal keeper, as described in Bosch’s 1920 patent GB171087. http://worldwide.espacenet.com/maxi...n_EP&FT=D&date=19230226&CC=GB&NR=171087A&KC=A Bosch’s words: By bringing the pole shoes nearer together the further advantage is obtained that the magnetic circuit is practically closed even when the armature is removed from the machine, for example, during repairs. This prevents demagnetisation of the magnets which would otherwise occur. Oddly, I’m not sure Bosch ever used that feature in their magnetos, but Lucas certainly did. As Lucas said in their workshop instructions for the KVF, Withdraw the armature from the magneto body. The high-energy magnet in the latter does not need a keeper across it; although a very small amount of energy is lost at the first removal of the armature, subsequent removals do not affect it. And later on, Normally, remagnetisation will not be necessary but, should it be considered so, full instructions will be found in Section D-6 of the Lucas Workshop Manual.
Ken.
That link didn't come out properly. Try again:
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/maxi...n_EP&FT=D&date=19230226&CC=GB&NR=171087A&KC=A
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/maxi...n_EP&FT=D&date=19230226&CC=GB&NR=171087A&KC=A
Gentlemen, Because this dialogue can benefit the membership it should be allowed. This is not, however, a forum to be used to promote ones products - There are adverts that can be purchased for that purpose. Mr.Targett - you could do worse than become a member of those organizations that you wish to market your wares to.
Keep it civil and respectful Please..
Keep it civil and respectful Please..
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