Concours Judging

[vibrac]

The point is though, how do these judges know how it left the factory? ...... What is been used as a reference? ''''''
The first thing I do when I look at the works order form for a Vincent is go to the "non standard" section of the form.
There is no such thing as a standard Vincent.
Simon

Simon is so right but that's beauty contests for you 'chasing shadows' seems an apt phrase as is 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder'. Since no one can say what a machine produced in knife and fork production in the Britain of the late forties should look like it soon becomes a bit esoteric. If you were judging mass produced refrigerators you might have a chance.
But what do I know? I have a black plastic valve cap on my modern GS 1100 back tyre instead of a grey one.
One thing is certain it won't affect the ride.

 

[nkt267]

My view on Concours machines is that if you found a fully crated Vincent and uncrated it at a show it would never win,despite being 'as supplied by the factory'. I don't think that is what judges expect these days.

 

[greg brillus]

I feel I know the bikes pretty well, but I've yet to either have any of my bikes judged or have I done any judging that was down to the absolute factory spec accuracy of what some of these shows expect. You can only restore a bike based on the best availability of parts and knowledge that you can. From what I have seen it is impossible to restore one of these bikes (or any other for that matter) to 100 % factory original. For example.......we know on Shadow's that the last part of the engine number was stamped after the cases were painted and touched up afterward...........That in itself is almost impossible to duplicate. The biggest single factor in an accurate Restoration is time..........You will need lots of it to source genuine parts.........And that is the one common factor........Oh........and plenty of money.........Ebay has taken care of that.

 

[jdhmike]

My view on Concours machines is that if you found a fully crated Vincent and uncrated it at a show it would never win,despite being 'as supplied by the factory'. I don't think that is what judges expect these days.

Actually AMCA judging is not like concourse judging, each bike is judged on it's own merit using the as from factory criteria as the standard. However, I agree that it would appear although bikes were basically similar no 2 were identical.

 

[Mike 40M]

Apologies, not Vincent related, but Concours related.
Friend won a Porche meeting Concours competition.
Second came a new car driven 30 miles from the retailer to the meeting.
Reason it came second, rust protection under it poorly applied.

 

[davidd]

Actually AMCA judging is not like concourse judging, each bike is judged on it's own merit using the as from factory criteria as the standard. However, I agree that it would appear although bikes were basically similar no 2 were identical.

The "as from factory" standard is one that does not exist. There were too many variations in production. As Simon has pointed out many times, the changes to components did not happen with "Series" changes, they happened at any time during production. Did Series B bikes had steel hardware that was stamped with the part numbers? Did Series B's have long or short RFM's, straight or curved seat stays? Did their head castings have supports or not? Series B's had at least three types of timing covers. Which of these is correct?

I think all of these issues could not be known by even an excellent AMCA judge and all of these items are like the medallion in that the judge has a small piece of knowledge about some item and applies it to everything.

That said, I would not rain on your parade. If you enjoy this challenge, keep pecking away at it. I have done the same thing with racing and I have a few pieces of wood to prove it.

David

 

[Somer]

I know a "little" about this. I once consulted on the restoration of a pretty famous race bike. The restorers came and looked at a few of my original paint bikes. I pointed out "factory flaws". Orange peel was the standard, not 20 coats of hand rubbed lacquer. Also that just the decals and stripes on tanks were clear coated, not entire bikes. Hardware was cadmium, not stainless steel.
There are several standards of judging: ICJAG { International Council of Judges Advisory Group} is a standard used by many concours for cars and motorcycles. A long list of specific areas is used to check off or grade. On say wheels you would look at
1) Is it a Dunlop?
2) Correct size? Can they document a variation?
3)Carriage striping correct?
4) Nipples, spokes cadmium plated?
Then there is what is known as French judging which is more of a beauty contest.
AMCA judging is very similar to ICJAG standards. Everything is broken down into subcategories,

 

[roy the mechanic]

I feel that a lot of people do not understand the meaning of "concours de-elegance". It was never intended to be for original factory bikes or cars. The translation "concours " a row or line "elegance" the most pretty. As part of the award for the most superlative motorcycle at Salon Prive , I was given a book called The concours of elegance. It chronicals the history of these events ,virtually all the big time winners were custom built.

 

[clevtrev]

The "as from factory" standard is one that does not exist. There were too many variations in production. As Simon has pointed out many times, the changes to components did not happen with "Series" changes, they happened at any time during production. Did Series B bikes had steel hardware that was stamped with the part numbers? Did Series B's have long or short RFM's, straight or curved seat stays? Did their head castings have supports or not? Series B's had at least three types of timing covers. Which of these is correct?

I think all of these issues could not be known by even an excellent AMCA judge and all of these items are like the medallion in that the judge has a small piece of knowledge about some item and applies it to everything.

That said, I would not rain on your parade. If you enjoy this challenge, keep pecking away at it. I have done the same thing with racing and I have a few pieces of wood to prove it.

David

That sawdust comes in handy. Or should I say pecker dust ?

 

[jdhmike]

The "as from factory" standard is one that does not exist. There were too many variations in production. As Simon has pointed out many times, the changes to components did not happen with "Series" changes, they happened at any time during production. Did Series B bikes had steel hardware that was stamped with the part numbers? Did Series B's have long or short RFM's, straight or curved seat stays? Did their head castings have supports or not? Series B's had at least three types of timing covers. Which of these is correct?

I think all of these issues could not be known by even an excellent AMCA judge and all of these items are like the medallion in that the judge has a small piece of knowledge about some item and applies it to everything.

That said, I would not rain on your parade. If you enjoy this challenge, keep pecking away at it. I have done the same thing with racing and I have a few pieces of wood to prove it.

David

Agree with everything you are stating. This is also true with other manufactures. Although not probable the more documentation one can use to support the bike the better. The other thing this process does for me is makes me more knowledgeable.