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E: Engine Comet Mongrel


davidd

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VOC Member
The photo of the lever in #433 shows a lever that is designed for stunt motorcycles. They often have to clutch with one finger in order to hold onto the handlebars while doing a stunt.

I know exactly what you mean. I have always wanted matching levers!

David
 

Cyborg

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I switched the bars side to side. Hard to tell from the photo but it doesn't look as goofy as I thought it might. The slightly more rearward position of the bars isn't what I would call unwelcome. The Honda master cylinder now fits. I can still use the brake hose as they are Venhill and the fittings can be turned around. The reservoir is less obtrusive than the Suzuki one that was sticking up in the air.


Bars switched.jpg
 

Cyborg

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I did look at a MX (why did they loose the name Scambles?) clutch multiplier to use the Conways Honda Clutch
see here
There appear to be different versions out there and they get mixed reviews. I'm curious to see how Oldhaven makes out with his setup. He has the same clutch/gearbox and similar birthday. No room to extend the clutch release arm in the gearbox, so I think I will take a stab at making a multiplier. There seems to be oodles of travel at the pressure plate and the distance between engaged and disengaged is relatively narrow by comparison. It certainly looks like a further change in ratio could be accommodated without any worries of clutch drag. I suppose I could get the DDG out and actually measure things and then figure out what sort of ratio would be best and then make a crude one to test and a proper one if it passes the smell test.
Maybe a better cable and oil in the G/B would help a bit, but there is something odd here with my setup. The clutch release arm and roller were replaced with new. Peeking into the cable access shows everything where it is supposed to be and the roller turns freely etc and it was given a drop or two of oil during assembly.
 

Oldhaven

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It will be a while until I have things ready to test the clutch pull, as I have to take things apart enough to make a clearance slot in the faux G50 plate for the cable, so I will be learning from you instead. I am using a Suzuki GT750 clutch lever to match the right one for the dual front brakes. It has about 1-1/8" (28mm?) between centers. The recess for the cable nipple is 8mm, too small for the Commando clutch cable end, so I will have to mill it to 3/8 and I could move it a small distance closer to the pivot bolt.

What is the pull like with just the unhooked cable and no clutch in that route? That picture looks like the upper bend could be loosened up a bit.
 

Cyborg

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I think its just the photo, when I look at it real life its a pretty smooth path. If I back off the adjusters and pull up on the outer cable at the gearbox end while pulling the lever in, it takes less effort than removing the skin off a rice pudding. So... unless there is something funny going on with the lining under load.. There are probably better cables out there. The cable is a used (but appears excellent) Honda cable that I changed the end on to fit the Norton clutch lifter. Again, with the different lever, it no longer qualifies as brutal, but more than I want to contend with in traffic and it doesn't jive with the feedback from others.
 

Cyborg

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£17.95 Trials Parts Easy pull. From Feked.com U.K.
That seems the same as the other two on the market on this side of the pond. Given the debate about which pin setting provides the least amount of effort, I wonder how well they work.
 

Chris Launders

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I've just fitted an Easy Pull to my 1150 Brough but the opposite way round to give more lift, I'm using the inverted lever that normally operates the valve lifter and it doesn't give enough lift to clear the clutch properly standard.
 
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vibrac

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There is something wrong if your newby clutch is hard to pull
I doubt it's the lever I have standard and alloy ones I guess it's in the gearbox lever geometry. incidentally my flash clutch problem was a mushroomed push rod must make sure its real cherry red before quenching I also tried an old trick of floating oil on the quench water (R of course:)) to reduce chances of quench fracture it may be an old wives tales but it smells nice ( oops thread hi jack)
 

Cyborg

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There is something wrong if your newby clutch is hard to pull
I doubt it's the lever I have standard and alloy ones I guess it's in the gearbox lever geometry. incidentally my flash clutch problem was a mushroomed push rod must make sure its real cherry red before quenching I also tried an old trick of floating oil on the quench water (R of course:)) to reduce chances of quench fracture it may be an old wives tales but it smells nice ( oops thread hi jack)
Well the Mk3 gearbox would have had a diaphragm clutch attached to it, but don't know if that would cause them to change the geometry. Plus probably oodles of Commandos around wth Newby clutches.

Switching the lever did make a noticeable difference. Some sort of DIY easy pull is probably the answer. The clutch starts to release at .0065" actually I could say it releases at .0065" of lift. When engaging you can hear the plates start to drag at .035", but thats turning it over with the kickstarter, so don't know if at that point it would interfere with finding neutral. In other words, I need to get it running to know for sure. Anyway... I can get a total of .138" lift, so seems to be lots of room to change the ratio without causing problems. Last night I played around a bit with a lever and two DDGs and figure 30% is a good place to start.

Maybe someone out there with a nice easy Newby clutch could measure the total lift on their pressure plate when they pull the lever in and that might answer the gearbox lever geometry question. Only problem there is that to compare apples to apples (except for handlebar lever ratio) it needs all of the cable slack taken out plus the slack removed on the adjuster on the pressure plate.

I cut down a pushrod and ground a bullet shape on the end to match the Newby adjuster. Used this stuff..totally unnecessary, but had it sitting on the shelf and it helps to create the illusion that I know what I'm doing.

BTW...Discussing Castrol R doesn't qualify as a thread highjack. An excellent form of aromatherapy...right up there with the smell of spent gunpowder.. depending on your mood.

Clutch pushrod.jpg
 
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Chris Launders

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My Friend has a Norvin with a Norton box/Newby clutch and that's really heavy, heavier then mine with Norton Box/Commando clutch, I've told him there must be something wrong be he insists there isn't. I do know the Commando and Dominator operating arms are different but I wouldn't think that much.
 

Cyborg

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My Friend has a Norvin with a Norton box/Newby clutch and that's really heavy, heavier then mine with Norton Box/Commando clutch, I've told him there must be something wrong be he insists there isn't. I do know the Commando and Dominator operating arms are different but I wouldn't think that much.
Does the Dominator have the same style I wonder. There is another older gearbox similar to this one down in the garage, but the lever and related bits are buried in one of "a few" tupperware containers. As mentioned previously there isn't any room to extend the arm inside the outer cover, so it doesn't appear at a quick glance that swapping it for one from another gearbox would be possible. Anyway thanks for the reply... might help to dispel the belief by some that I'm just a little limp wristed.
 

Bill Thomas

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Just had a thought, Bit of a long shot Brother Ron, Has an old Norton box on his Comet, His clutch was so bad, He broke a cable going to a rally. He has stronger hands than me, It moved the first bit, Not too bad Then half way it went real bad.
I was down there for something else and I had a feel of it, With my bad hands , It was unrideable !.
There is an adjustment to alter the swing of the lever inside the outer cover and I adjusted it a bit like a Vin Twin,
Bringing the bit where the cable goes as far to the filler cap as I could, = Much better, I could not think how he rode it before, I know nothing about Norton Gearboxes, Just knew I had to do something.
Cheers Bill.
 

Chris Launders

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The Dominator one has two holes in it, the Commando one is plain, I don't have a pair to see the difference but there apparently is one. You need to compare the curves based on the centre of the radius where the ball sits.
 

Cyborg

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Just had a thought, Bit of a long shot Brother Ron, Has an old Norton box on his Comet, His clutch was so bad, He broke a cable going to a rally. He has stronger hands than me, It moved the first bit, Not too bad Then half way it went real bad.
I was down there for something else and I had a feel of it, With my bad hands , It was unrideable !.
There is an adjustment to alter the swing of the lever inside the outer cover and I adjusted it a bit like a Vin Twin,
Bringing the bit where the cable goes as far to the filler cap as I could, = Much better, I could not think how he rode it before, I know nothing about Norton Gearboxes, Just knew I had to do something.
Cheers Bill.
I just had a look at the Commando manual. No mention of adjustment other than lining the arm up to get a straight pull. His must be the older style that uses the threaded pusher. Can’t remember if it’s spiral, worn, or square thread. If the arm was out of position then moving it would help.
 

Cyborg

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The Dominator one has two holes in it, the Commando one is plain, I don't have a pair to see the difference but there apparently is one. You need to compare the curves based on the centre of the radius where the ball sits.
Thanks. I’ll root around and see if I can find the other one. Not sure what the other gearbox is from or what type of clutch it had on it, but maybe the #s on the box will tell me. Wonder if it used a different size ball as well?

Edit I just noticed that the photo in the manual (early Commando) has those two holes. I don't think they stole the image from an earlier manual because it has the later style of mounting bits, so not sure why the holes appeared in the first place or why they disappeared later on.
The service manual for 50, ES2, 88, 99, and 750 Atlas shows that same arm ( like yours). I'm thinking the other gearbox must be from one of them, so definitely worth searching for.
 
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Bill Thomas

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Just had another thought, My head hurts, I now remember what I did, I unadjusted the cable, Then went to the clutch plates and adjusted the centre screw, IN, so that the arm was close to the inspection cap, Then refitted the cable. Sorry my memory is not what it was. Bill.
 

Cyborg

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VOC Member
Well I dug around and found the other clutch operating lever and did some searching on the inter webs. Appears that Chris has saved the day. As a bonus, I found two clutch lifters that are older Norton (Dolls Head maybe) that would press nicely against a radial roller bearing.

The more I look at the other lever I found, the more it looks like Commando and not Atlas type, so may as well order a new one to be safe or maybe take a stab at modifying one.

Chris.. you can probably get a few pints out of your friend with the Norvin. Thanks for your post! They did change the lever for the diaphragm clutch and as previously mentioned, I don't need all that extra lift.



Scroll down to Atlas actuator http://atlanticgreen.com/ndnsclutch.htm

Clutch opperating lever.jpg


Clutch lifter.jpg
 
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