Charging sealed batteries with Alton alternators

[jim burgess]

Gentlemen, I thank you all. I knew this would be a nice simple topic with easy answers. I can't see that an expensive battery should only last 3 years... My battery is positioned right in the tail of the bike, so nice'n'cool. If a bit bumpy... The conterhand reccomened fully discharging the battery with, say the bikes lights then re charging. I think I will have to buy a better battery charger, I have heard some poor reports abouit Optimates, but I have never used one, and I am concerned that the Alton does not charge err 'in the right way' err... I have bought a replacemnet Bosch and Thursday I will try running it with the bike, take some readings and get back to y'all.
Cheers again, oh to get back to something simple like shiming cams...
Jim Burgess

 

[Martyn Goodwin]

Sounds like a plan Martyn, but Li-Ion batteries also have there own limitations: If dicharged too far they may not accept a charge again, They can go into thermal runaway with excessive temperatures, life is shortened if fully charged, over charging also produces issues.
To run a Lithium Ion battery system correctly requires a fairly complex/expensive charging system.
Can you tell me how yours has been going and for how long please mate.

Regards
Kevin

I installed a SHORAI Lithium Ion battery in my Comet over ayear back and have ridden around 6,000 km with it since. I also purchased the Lithium-Ion specificcharger from SHORAI. First up – it isstill performing like it did day one – simply great. I only use the external charger if I have notrun the motor for a few months – just being anal cautious. I DO NOT use thecharger as an always on trickle charger – it’s simply not required.

On two occasions I have inadvertently run the battery welldown to the point where the lights, horn etc simply did not work – that’s thebeauty of magnetos – even with a flat battery the motor still runs! In both cases what had happened was that theretaining screw for the Alton drive pinion had come loose allowing the pinionto slip and thus no output from the Alton. After the second occurrence I learnt the importance of Loctite 243 onthe Alton drive pinion screw.

Other advantages are the battery is physically smaller thanthe equivalent A/Hr SLA or conventional battery plus there is no right way upso it can be installed in ANY position. I have also installed a 15 amp in-line fuse in the battery positive line. The battery and the in-line fuse installedwith room to spare inside a dummy EXIDE battery case. Finally I installed a battery isolationswitch immediately after the in-line fuse. Being a Comet – I made up a switch bracket then mounted it using one ofthe existing holes in F106

To complete the story – I also ensure good earth returns byrunning earth wires to the tail lamp assembly, the headlight shell and also tothe control switches on the bars. Thethought of earth currents trying to make their way through the bikes metalworkand especially head stem and swing arm bearings makes me very uncomfortable.

Martyn

 

[redbloke1956]

I installed a SHORAI Lithium Ion battery in my Comet over ayear back and have ridden around 6,000 km with it since. I also purchased the Lithium-Ion specificcharger from SHORAI. First up – it isstill performing like it did day one – simply great. I only use the external charger if I have notrun the motor for a few months – just being anal cautious. I DO NOT use thecharger as an always on trickle charger – it’s simply not required.

On two occasions I have inadvertently run the battery welldown to the point where the lights, horn etc simply did not work – that’s thebeauty of magnetos – even with a flat battery the motor still runs! In both cases what had happened was that theretaining screw for the Alton drive pinion had come loose allowing the pinionto slip and thus no output from the Alton. After the second occurrence I learnt the importance of Loctite 243 onthe Alton drive pinion screw.

Other advantages are the battery is physically smaller thanthe equivalent A/Hr SLA or conventional battery plus there is no right way upso it can be installed in ANY position. I have also installed a 15 amp in-line fuse in the battery positive line. The battery and the in-line fuse installedwith room to spare inside a dummy EXIDE battery case. Finally I installed a battery isolationswitch immediately after the in-line fuse. Being a Comet – I made up a switch bracket then mounted it using one ofthe existing holes in F106

To complete the story – I also ensure good earth returns byrunning earth wires to the tail lamp assembly, the headlight shell and also tothe control switches on the bars. Thethought of earth currents trying to make their way through the bikes metalworkand especially head stem and swing arm bearings makes me very uncomfortable.

Martyn

Thanks Martyn, sounds like you have everything covered mate, can you tell me where to purchase one and approx price please.

Regards
Kevin

 

[Monkeypants]

If you go with Lithium Ion, do not go by the pb/eq rating the Li battery manufacturers like to use. These batteries have the ability to produce a very high short term amp flow for their physical size. Because of this ability to produce a high discharge rate, they are given a very high pb/eq rate, which salespeople often confuse with amp hour rating. The high pb/eq is useful for an electric start machine, but not of any use for most of our machines. We need a battery which can sustain a fairly low rate of discharge when stuck in heavy traffic at night with lighting loads and possibly ignition loads. For that type of usage, lead acid works well, at least it is predictably familiar in it's capacity.
For several years I've run a little 7 ah lead acid battery inside a battery box on my Oz Rapide. It would be nice to have a little larger battery, but space is limited with the amount of switches, fuses and wiring in the box. So this year I decided to switch to a Lithium Ion battery to free up a bit more space

. The sales rep suggested a tiny 4 cell Ballistic battery as it has a 9 pb/eq rating compared to my lead acids rating of 7 pb/eq. Unfortunately it only has an amphour rating of 2.3, so it has very little power stored even when fully charged. I have found that the battery only has enough power stored to run the bike at an idle with the headlights on for about two or three minutes, then voltage drops off a cliff as Martyn mentioned. Once voltage drops to around 12 volts, the battery more or less shuts down to protect itself.. Whereas a lead acid battery will happily continue to produce power when below 12 volts, the li battery does not.
In my case, with dual point/coil ignition, the motor dies and will not re start.
After my initial problems, with the battery precharged to about 13 volts (too low) I was going to replace the Li battery, but I have since learned that this battery needs to be kept charged at around 13.6 volts and not allowed to fall much below 12.5 volts. Fortunately the Alton with Podtonics likes to keep the battery at 13.7 volts when running at good speeds, so it may work yet. If you have a charging system that regulates the voltage much lower than this, say 12.8 to 13 volts, then a small lithium ion battery is not for you. A reallylarge one might still work , however.

 

[Martyn Goodwin]

You can purchase direct from SHORAI Batteries Australia - make Google your friend - For a Motorcycle specific 9AH unit you want LFX09L2-BS12 and for a 14AH unit its a LFX14L2-BS12; the physical case size is 113mm x 89mm x 58mm deep. They also have 6 volt batteries as well. 9AH is A$132 14AH is A$152. Their battery specific charger is a SHORAI SHO-BMS01 @ A$117. regards, Martyn

 

[redbloke1956]

After my initial problems, with the battery precharged to about 13 volts (too low) I was going to replace the Li battery, but I have since learned that this battery needs to be kept charged at around 13.6 volts and not allowed to fall much below 12.5 volts. Fortunately the Alton with Podtonics likes to keep the battery at 13.7 volts when running at good speeds, so it may work yet. If you have a charging system that regulates the voltage much lower than this, say 12.8 to 13 volts, then a small lithium ion battery is not for you. A reallylarge one might still work , however.

Hi Glenliman, The minimum output of ANY charging system (on 12 Volts) should be regulated at 13.8 to 14.3 Volts, if lower than that then "Houston we have a problem"

Kevin

 

[redbloke1956]

You can purchase direct from SHORAI Batteries Australia - make Google your friend - For a Motorcycle specific 9AH unit you want LFX09L2-BS12 and for a 14AH unit its a LFX14L2-BS12; the physical case size is 113mm x 89mm x 58mm deep. They also have 6 volt batteries as well. 9AH is A$132 14AH is A$152. Their battery specific charger is a SHORAI SHO-BMS01 @ A$117. regards, Martyn

Thanks Martyn, I will buy one at next replacement, assuming they still make them by the time I get the Comet on the road

Kevin

 

[redbloke1956]

I installed a SHORAI Lithium Ion battery in my Comet over ayear back and have ridden around 6,000 km with it since. I also purchased the Lithium-Ion specificcharger from SHORAI. First up – it isstill performing like it did day one – simply great. I only use the external charger if I have notrun the motor for a few months – just being anal cautious. I DO NOT use thecharger as an always on trickle charger – it’s simply not required.

On two occasions I have inadvertently run the battery welldown to the point where the lights, horn etc simply did not work – that’s thebeauty of magnetos – even with a flat battery the motor still runs! In both cases what had happened was that theretaining screw for the Alton drive pinion had come loose allowing the pinionto slip and thus no output from the Alton. After the second occurrence I learnt the importance of Loctite 243 onthe Alton drive pinion screw.

Other advantages are the battery is physically smaller thanthe equivalent A/Hr SLA or conventional battery plus there is no right way upso it can be installed in ANY position. I have also installed a 15 amp in-line fuse in the battery positive line. The battery and the in-line fuse installedwith room to spare inside a dummy EXIDE battery case. Finally I installed a battery isolationswitch immediately after the in-line fuse. Being a Comet – I made up a switch bracket then mounted it using one ofthe existing holes in F106

To complete the story – I also ensure good earth returns byrunning earth wires to the tail lamp assembly, the headlight shell and also tothe control switches on the bars. Thethought of earth currents trying to make their way through the bikes metalworkand especially head stem and swing arm bearings makes me very uncomfortable.

Martyn

I remember having a similar problem on, I think it was on DC3 aircraft, where a bad earth meant current flowing through bearings and causing them to fail pretty quickly.

Kevin

 

[Monkeypants]

Hi Glenliman, The minimum output of ANY charging system (on 12 Volts) should be regulated at 13.8 to 14.3 Volts, if lower than that then "Houston we have a problem"

Kevin

Hi Kevin

I worded that bit incorrectly. What I meant to say is that if your charging system maintains your battery in the 12.5 to 13 volt range, as many systems do, then you need to put a larger than recommended Li battery in place. If at the end of your ride the battery is charged to 13 volts with a lead acid battery, you are good to go for your next ride. With a Li battery, you are not, you have a nearly dead battery..

A lithium Ion battery at 13 volts has only 30% of it's rated capacity remaining. My first Lithium Ion motorcycle battery was three times the recommended size because I intend to add an e start to that bike. It turns out that this was a good thing, it has about the reserve capacity needed. The second one, which I have had problems with, is the recommended size and it is really too small. I will likely end up changing it or adding a back up sealed battery in the top box.

This motorcycle battery review has some good info and cuts thru the manufacturers hype for Li batteries.

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=757934
Scroll down the first page and check out the decline chart. It explains the problems I have been having. If you have magneto igniton and ride in the daytime, you might never experience this, because you barely even use your battery. A few dry cell flashlight batteries in series would more than do the job of running your brake light.
If you ride at night with a big headlight and electronic or ,worse, points/coil igniton, you need a battery that can take up the slack when the system is discharging at low rpm in town, at stoplights etc. This is when the small amphour Li battery can give you a real problem.
My other rapide has a chinamo, JG reg at 12 volts and a lead acid battery. It also has a 60 watt H4 headlight and distributor igniton. Coming back from a night ride it will often show 12.5 volts in the battery when checked. This is just fine for that system and has worked well for years. If I switch that battery over to a Li battery and do the same ride, coming home with 12.5 volts, it will fail on the next night ride.

Glen

 

[clevtrev]

Should point out that the Shorai is a Lithium IRON, not Ion.