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Cellulose paint & transfers

deejay499

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Hi all. We have just sprayed a tank using cellulose (No two pack facilities) and when we tried use acrylic lacquer over the transfers, they crinkle up.:(
Are there different types of transfers? or what is the answer, apart from two pack.
Thanks, Dave
 

mercurycrest

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Hi Dave,
Try just barely dusting the coats on. At least a half dozen or more, letting each one dry in between. I don't know if Brit paint is the same as ours, but that's what I've had to do.
Cheers, John
 

Bracker1

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
I'd try one of the catalyzed clears(2-pack) used in the base coat clear coat systems. They set as quickly as acrylic lacquers, polish well, and are fuel resistant, and typically don't wrinkle transfers. Lacquers yellow and are soften by the fuel and it's fumes, crack and misbehave.
Don't know why anyone uses lacquers at all anymore. Healthwise, all paint systems use carcinogenic solvents except the waterbase systems. So spray with caution. The days of shooting in the garage are coming to an end. In our area, the local community college lets people use their paint booth for a small fee. Good ventilation, access to respirators and chemical suits, good lighting, plus you'll minimize area pollution. Good luck with your spray job, and post some pictures of the finished tank/project. Safe riding, Dan
 

Bracker1

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
Found your solution. Talked to a boat builder who uses UV resistant crystal clear epoxy. He brushes over the pinstriping etc with the epoxy and lets that cure. Then sprays with the clear lacquer with no problems. He buys the epoxy from the wood working stores. hope this helps, Dan
 

deejay499

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Thanks very much folks. It has given us a couple of more things to try. Incidentally, we found someone doing vinyl Vincent badges which may also be an answer. We will keep you updated.
Cheers, Dave
 

indianken

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
Dave,
Have a talk with your local auto body repair shop. They can clear coat, (in two pack over your color coat), your tank when they do there next paint repair job. Good for them, as every thing is already mixed and ready to go and good for you as they won't charge you for the full time and materials a separate job would take and the two pack clear can take a fuel spill.
Ken Smith
PS. Ask if one of the painters is a motorcyclist. Works for me.
 

peterg

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
Howdy Dave,

The most prolific painter of Vin tanks in the U.S. has his transfers done in vinyl. The problem with water slide transfers and solvent reaction is not the transfer itself but its adhesive.

Back when I shot my Red Rap tank below, I completely washed all the adhesives off my decals, trimmed back the clear edges almost to the color, adhered with watered down Elmer's glue and squigee'd them firmly. I then lightly heated the inside of the tank through the neck with a heat gun and then laid down one or two quick light wet coats of BASF/Glassurit's 21 line catalyzed enamel which flashed quickly resulting in no lifting. It's solvent dwell time during flash-off that kills these decals. Laying down dust coats can be risky in that you may experience clouding in these areas and applying your final wets generally chemically engages anything beneath it anyway and thus the lifting risk remains.

As we yanks sometimes use branding references to activities, I reckon "lacquering" might be a reference to vehicle orienting painting - as opposed to household - and y'all may very well be using enamel?? Hope so, lacquer never "cures" per se and being anywhere near a heat source (like your engine) will mean continual shifting with every heat cycle resulting in gloss flattening and evidence of lining from underlayer (body filler) shifting. It's solvent resistence is nil, you'll note it immediately turns to a liquid when wiped with anything even as benign as Brake Clean compared to enamel which may just peel back from the surface.

For the effort expended in lining and decals, if there was any piece on a Vin you'd want to go to the trouble of CE paints, it's your fuel tank. I just returned from the first AMCA meet of the season in Florida in which many there had their first introduction to 10% plus ethanol formulated fuel and it was tragic for some on our Road Run who inadvertantly splashed any on the faces of their tanks if not painted with CE.



vincent25.jpg
 
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deejay499

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Hi Peter. Thanks for all the info. We were beginning to suspect the adhesive on the decals as we have heard of someone having problems using two pack. Some useful info for our Information Officer and perhaps VOCS Liason officer.
We will probably go with the vinyl ones.
We have just heard that we will be getting Ethenol added to our petrol, so that will cause more problems.
Thanks again, Dave
 
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Comet Rider

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Fuel and transfers

Hi Peter. Thanks for all the info. We were beginning to suspect the adhesive on the decals as we have heard of someone having problems using two pack. Some useful info for our Information Officer and perhaps VOCS Liason officer.
We will probably go with the vinyl ones.
We have just heard that we will be getting Ethenol added to our petrol, so that will cause more problems.
Thanks again, Dave

Hi Dave,

We've had Bio-(d)ethanol in our fuel since April 2008:mad:

Neil
 

peterg

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
Howdy Chaps,

Not to exhaust this topic but on the subject of +10 ethanol content and your fuel tank, a problem we're experiencing more frequently here - in addition to gasket/o-ring swelling/deterioration - is tank liner degradation.

Once your version of our EPA has the upper hand in said formulations where catalytic converter preservation is concerned, unlike aviation or off-road use requirements which remain relatively stable, you'll be dealing with a dynamic for which few (no) conventional pour-in tank liner vendors can confidently tell you their product will work into the forseeable future.

Backing up before the painting part of the process, I'd restore tank integrity with welding/brazing in lieu of any liners.
 

Prosper Keating

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
Thanks very much folks. It has given us a couple of more things to try. Incidentally, we found someone doing vinyl Vincent badges which may also be an answer. We will keep you updated.
Cheers, Dave

These are horrible-looking. I recently stripped and redid a tank because it had these things - that look like those giveaway stickers from a cereal packet - and stick-on lining. A dozen coats of ordinary aerosol black, followed by some twenty coats of clear lacquer.

Atwood is absolutely right. There was a problem with the waterslide transfers but we felt that this may also have been due to the final drying processes so the tank was slow-baked in the oven - when she-who-must-be-obeyed was on a foreign trip - and hung up for a fortnight. No problems after that. A coat or two of marine varnish applied over the transfers after a few days with a modeller's brush, extending just a millimetre past the transfers, did the trick. The lining was done before the lacquering with a Bugler tool, using a brown paper template held in place with Vaseline.

The resulting finish is perfectly acceptable on a machine used as an everyday nail and is probably as good as any run-of-the-mill tank on a machine rolling out of Stevenage at the time. It would be nice to see about producing some proper period-style transfers of the kind applied with artist's size or varnish. They're not as simple as the waterslide type but there is no reason why any intelligent, careful person cannot make a decent job of putting them on his motorcycle. They are much better-looking, with more vibrant colours that last longer in sunlight, and far more durable from the viewpoint of knocks and dings. Remember your old Raleigh bicycles when you were kids? And if anyone here has ever had an original German helmet from WW2 or the 1930s with its decals or transfers in place, you'll know what I mean.

PK
 

deejay499

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Prosper. Thanks for the warning regarding vinyl transfers. It looks like we might be better going the way you said with marine varnish. I will keep you updated.
Cheers, Dave
 

indianken

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
Hi all. We have just sprayed a tank using cellulose (No two pack facilities) and when we tried use acrylic lacquer over the transfers, they crinkle up.:(
Are there different types of transfers? or what is the answer, apart from two pack.
Thanks, Dave

Here are two photos of my 1931 Indian 101 Scout I restored some time ago. I used waterside decals on the tank, with spray can lacquer clear coat over them. I think the trick is to give plenty of time between applying the decal, so it has completely dried, and using a very light spray of your clear lacquer, giving it enough time for the solvents to completely evaporate between coats
.
I did the complete restoration using Plasti-kote spray cans. The reason for this was my involvement in a discussion with some friends, at a local vintage motorcycle event, and they were complaining about the outrageous cost of getting their bikes painted. I said, "I bet I could paint one to an acceptable finish for $150". This caused much laughter and harrumphing among them. "We'll see", I said to myself..

So I refinished the 101 using only Plasti-kote spray cans:

1. Etching primer on all surfaces.
2. Black enamel for wheel, bars. etc.
3. Hi temp silver engine enamel.
4. Primer-Sealer where necessary
5. Red enamel for frame.
6. Red lacquer for fenders and fuel tank.
7. Gold lacquer for pin stripes.
8. Clear lacquer over red for fuel tank.

My total cost was $142, for paint $116 and for other necessities $26, (Solvent, sandpaper, masking tape [to out line the gold stripes], etc.).

I think it turned out very respectably. Even the " Harrumphors" had to admit that. More like the original finish than that "Dipped" in Plastic look you sometimes see with two pack. :)D)

Ken Smith

 

peterg

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
Harrumph +10!

142 yankee dolluhs!?

A positively unjustifiable indulgence in frippery, I say. My Krylon (4.5 cans) stained wretch, TheRattler, was resurrected from the contents of a mottley assortment of plastic buckets below this last Fall for less than $20.

This humble finish gleefully fanned over bare metal...and some adjacent shrubbery - no fillers, no primers. Red paint for hand striping the rims sourced from my now somewhat-hardened 11 year old left overs in the attic from the Red Rap resto.




 
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indianken

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
Peter,
I bow to my betters, OH prince of cheapness.;)
Ken Smith


quote=peterg;9264]142 yankee dolluhs!?

A positively unjustifiable indulgence in frippery, I say. My Krylon (4.5 cans) stained wretch, TheRattler, was resurrected from the contents of a mottley assortment of plastic buckets below this last Fall for less than $20.

This humble finish gleefully fanned over bare metal...and some adjacent shrubbery - no fillers, no primers. Red paint for hand striping the rims sourced from my now somewhat-hardened 11 year old left overs in the attic from the Red Rap resto.




[/quote]
 

peterg

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
Howdy MrKen,

That monicker far more preferred than more common prince of darkness for which I'm still in disbelief as to how good an even nominally doted upon Miller genie - all experience to date having been with the larger E3L's on my Rap - can be.

Realize you're probably well into 12V's to go with those new dual discs on your machine but I thought I'd give a 6V Miller one single try before placing an order for an Alton. That was 6 weeks and 800 miles ago, nearly a third of it done at night included last evening's pub rounds. Built up one from a pile of several carcasses, wired it in series to a PODtronic, installed the VOCS LED out back, a 24/36W bulb in front and have yet to experience any dimming at idle in urban riding. And that's even with the nominal India-sourced 8amp LA battery, a 12a AGM will be icing on the cake. Charge balance is achieved at a little over 30mph on a 46T/19" wheel.

So, may TheRattler's orb cast a warm glow upon your disbelieving countenance somewhere down the dusty trail.
 
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indianken

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
KenLight600x450.jpg

Peter,
Here is a headlight that outshines your Miller and
gives out enough heat to brew up a cup of tea in minutes too!
No electrical load either.:eek:
Ken Smith




Howdy MrKen,

That monicker far more preferred than more common prince of darkness for which I'm still in disbelief as to how good an even nominally doted upon Miller genie - all experience to date having been with the larger E3L's on my Rap - can be.

Realize you're probably well into 12V's to go with those new dual discs on your machine but I thought I'd give a 6V Miller one single try before placing an order for an Alton. That was 6 weeks and 800 miles ago, nearly a third of it done at night included last evening's pub rounds. Built up one from a pile of several carcasses, wired it in series to a PODtronic, installed the VOCS LED out back, a 24/36W bulb in front and have yet to experience any dimming at idle in urban riding. And that's even with the nominal India-sourced 8amp LA battery, a 12a AGM will be icing on the cake. Charge balance is achieved at a little over 30mph on a 46T/19" wheel.

So, may TheRattler's orb cast a warm glow upon your disbelieving countenance somewhere down the dusty trail.
 

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