ET: Engine (Twin) Cam Wear

Nigel Spaxman

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VOC Member
Today I took my timing cover off to have a look inside. I haven't seen in there since last winter and I have ridden about 5000 miles since then. I am going to replace the gasket with a Cometic one. That will make it easier to take a look inside whenever I want, and prevent future leaks. I wanted to find out what is causing the extra ticking noise that I started noticing in December.

On inspection I found that I have too much end clearance on some of the spindles. There is about .020 end play on most of them. I think when I built the engine and fitted all new spindles I had fitted them in a bit to far and now they are gradually being moved out to the spot where they are happiest. I had them all set for about .003 to .005 clearance and the only explanation for the additional clearance must be the spindles moving. There is no noticeable wear that would increase end play that much. I think the aluminum plate may have been bowed in slightly at each spindle being held out by the spacers about .020 too much. Gradually over 8000 mile the plate has moved the spindles to the spot where the plate is flat. I think that problem was caused by using some washers that were a bit too thin but using a measurement for the position of the spindles that would suit fatter washers. Anyway those problems are easy enough to fix.

The bigger problem is that my rear cylinder inlet cam has worn again. Last year after only about 3000 miles it was worn pretty badly, so I replaced it and the follower with new ones. None of the other lobes or followers had any noticeable wear. They are Terry Prince 105 cams and followers, but I am sure the fault is not with the cams because there has never been any wear at all on the other three lobes. From reading the forum and asking advice I decided this wear was caused by two faults. One was that I had the locking rocker feed bolts supplied by the spares company and the holes in those were too small. I opened them up to 1mm. The second problem was to do with the oil holes in the cams. On the inlet lobes that holes only lines up very briefly each revolution with the hole in the spindle, the exhaust lobes each have oil constantly supplied out that hole. On this forum someone advised connecting the hole in the inlet cam to the constant oil supply by broaching a slot in the bushing, so I did that as well. I think I won't replace the cam this time because this time the wear is a lot less so I will just stone it nicely fit a new follower and try it for another year. Probably the additional oil helped from the two modifications I did. I think what I will do to try to correct the problem is drill out the rocker feed bolt hole a bit more, only on this one. I am thinking I will go for 50% more area than 1mm so that I might get 50% more flow. I use only Amsoil 20W-50 Vee Twin oil, full synthetic.

The other thing that could cause this problem would be a lack of clearance somewhere in that part of the valve train. I checked valve to piston clearance, and clearance on the rockers and valve guides etc. when assembling the engine. It may be that on just this one valve the valve adjuster can hit the inside of the inspection cap sometimes. This adjuster is unscrewed a bit more than the other three. There is one small mark on the inside of the cap.

There is some wear on the follower but the wear on the cam is about .020". Last year I think I had about .050 wear on the cam in 3000 miles and the follower was ruined as well.

Has anyone else had this problem? What were your solutions? This engine runs really well apart from this. It starts easily and it is pretty fast.

Nigel
 

greg brillus

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VOC Member
Did you make enough allowance for the extra valve travel with the higher lift cams with regards to the lower valve guides. You need to allow about 0.400" travel or else the collar will hit the top of the guide. Anything like that will knock the top off the came lobe near instantly.Cheers............Greg.
 

Martyn Goodwin

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Non-VOC Member
Did you make enough allowance for the extra valve travel with the higher lift cams with regards to the lower valve guides. You need to allow about 0.400" travel or else the collar will hit the top of the guide. Anything like that will knock the top off the came lobe near instantly.Cheers............Greg.
I had that EXACT problem with TP cams
 

greg brillus

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Actually if the tappet adjuster was hitting the inside of the cap, that would be enough to do the damage. You have to use either a shorter pushrod, or cut the hex off the adjuster and cut a screw driver slot or similar in to the top of it. It pays to turn the engine over using the back wheel in top gear and feel for any stiffness or binding as the engine is slowly rotated, leave the ET 160 gasket off and rotate the inspection caps with the cam on full lift and you will soon feel the cap lock up solid if there is something jamming it from the inside. All tricks of the trade of course....................
 

davidd

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VOC Member
Nigel,

As Greg and Martyn point out lack of clearance can put extra stress on the reciprocating parts and in turn the cam. On a ride back home from the North American rally one bike broke a push rod. The rocker had been hitting the guide seal a bit on every tap. The push rod finally became the weak link.

Occasionally, cam or follower will not meet the 60-65 hardness.

I have always set the height of the steady plate to the height dictated by the large idler cam (with the correct under steady plate shim) to make the height of all spindles the same. The idea was that the plate would not push or pull on the cam spindles. I have never had any shift, but I was trying to avoid that. I think you are correct that it is the lesser problem right now.

It does seem to have the signs of an oil problem, but so many of us have run 20W50 with stock locking rockers and my cam has .478 lifts with RD springs with a 7000 red line, so it is no picnic and no wear so far. It does look like it may not be the oil itself.

David
 

Robert Watson

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VOC Member
I think that the idea that the steady plate would pull the spindles out is perhaps a little far fetched Nigel. IMHO the steady plate whilst giving excellent lateral stability to the ends of the spindles is far too slight to give any significant axial thrust, unless of course the spindles started out a bit loose in the case. I usually look for about .006 end clearance on the spindles.
 

Martyn Goodwin

Well Known and Active Forum User
Non-VOC Member
Today I took my timing cover off to have a look inside. I haven't seen in there since last winter and I have ridden about 5000 miles since then. I am going to replace the gasket with a Cometic one. That will make it easier to take a look inside whenever I want, and prevent future leaks. I wanted to find out what is causing the extra ticking noise that I started noticing in December.

On inspection I found that I have too much end clearance on some of the spindles. There is about .020 end play on most of them. I think when I built the engine and fitted all new spindles I had fitted them in a bit to far and now they are gradually being moved out to the spot where they are happiest. I had them all set for about .003 to .005 clearance and the only explanation for the additional clearance must be the spindles moving. There is no noticeable wear that would increase end play that much. I think the aluminum plate may have been bowed in slightly at each spindle being held out by the spacers about .020 too much. Gradually over 8000 mile the plate has moved the spindles to the spot where the plate is flat. I think that problem was caused by using some washers that were a bit too thin but using a measurement for the position of the spindles that would suit fatter washers. Anyway those problems are easy enough to fix.

The bigger problem is that my rear cylinder inlet cam has worn again. Last year after only about 3000 miles it was worn pretty badly, so I replaced it and the follower with new ones. None of the other lobes or followers had any noticeable wear. They are Terry Prince 105 cams and followers, but I am sure the fault is not with the cams because there has never been any wear at all on the other three lobes. From reading the forum and asking advice I decided this wear was caused by two faults. One was that I had the locking rocker feed bolts supplied by the spares company and the holes in those were too small. I opened them up to 1mm. The second problem was to do with the oil holes in the cams. On the inlet lobes that holes only lines up very briefly each revolution with the hole in the spindle, the exhaust lobes each have oil constantly supplied out that hole. On this forum someone advised connecting the hole in the inlet cam to the constant oil supply by broaching a slot in the bushing, so I did that as well. I think I won't replace the cam this time because this time the wear is a lot less so I will just stone it nicely fit a new follower and try it for another year. Probably the additional oil helped from the two modifications I did. I think what I will do to try to correct the problem is drill out the rocker feed bolt hole a bit more, only on this one. I am thinking I will go for 50% more area than 1mm so that I might get 50% more flow. I use only Amsoil 20W-50 Vee Twin oil, full synthetic.

The other thing that could cause this problem would be a lack of clearance somewhere in that part of the valve train. I checked valve to piston clearance, and clearance on the rockers and valve guides etc. when assembling the engine. It may be that on just this one valve the valve adjuster can hit the inside of the inspection cap sometimes. This adjuster is unscrewed a bit more than the other three. There is one small mark on the inside of the cap.

There is some wear on the follower but the wear on the cam is about .020". Last year I think I had about .050 wear on the cam in 3000 miles and the follower was ruined as well.

Has anyone else had this problem? What were your solutions? This engine runs really well apart from this. It starts easily and it is pretty fast.

Nigel
You MUST find and fix the ticking noise - its something banging against an immovable object!

Some random comments:

Rocker feed bolts - open up the oil holes top and bottom to 1 mm then ADD 2 more holes also 1 mm, one at the top and one at the bottom. This gives a total of 4 holes in each rocker feed bolt - not a problem if you have valve stem seals in place. As a result you get a lot more oil going down the pushrod tubes to lubricate the cam/cam lifter bits.

Oil Hole in Timing side case above the oil pump worm - open it up to at least 1/4" diam. to give the oil pump itself a easier time.

Valve Lifter Mech: check clearances to be sure the TP cam lobes have plenty of room, especially on the front cylinder. When I tried TP cams this was one area where I had to remove a LOT of metal from the base of the valve lifter arm.

'Tappet' adjusters: make sure there is at least 0.040: clearance between the underside of the 'cap' and the adjusters when at max lift. You can crib extra space by following Gregs tip on removal of the bolt head or by fitting Neal Videan's socket head adjusters - another bodge is to use 2 gaskets under the caps. Not all caps are the same - some provide more clearance than others - I have no idea why.

Rocker Arms, Rocker Bearings and Locking Feed Bolts: Often easy to run out of room here. Check for clearance between the upper surface of the rocker arms at both Max and zero lift - I found I needed to remove a fair amount of material by grinding (then polishing) from the upper surface of my rocker arms to get sufficient clearance.

Cam followers: An oiling tip - Cut/grind some notches into to top side of the pivot ends of the cam followers to provide better spindle lubrication.

Martyn
 

greg brillus

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VOC Member
The main fixing points for the steady plate are the three small 1/4 diameter studs. These are not strong enough by comparison to other engines I have seen that use steady plates as well. The spindles can and will shift in the cases if the plate is buckled due to uneven heights, if you check the heat of your cases after a good run on a hot day I've seen mine at over 130 degrees Celsius. They do get hotter than you might think, so if the interference of a spindle is on the lower side, they will shift. It is not uncommon for those three spacers that sit over each 1/4 stud to be different lengths, and I always check these before I assemble the timing chest components............That is generally the height that I go off to align the spindles.
 

Nigel Spaxman

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VOC Member
Thanks for all these great tips. I think I will start by shortening the push rod a little bit, or I will cut the hex off the adjuster. It has always amazed me that there is enough clearance there. I think cutting the hex off the adjuster is the best idea as moving the hex down by shortening the push rod really only moves the hex parallel to the area of the cap that it hits on. It is annoying that you have to turn the engine a bit to take the caps off. After I put on the HRD caps instead of the Vincent ones I did notice those marks. I have previously checked the clearances below the collars on the valves and all around the rockers, there was extra in those spots and valve to piston clearance as well. The timing chest was very quiet when I first put the bike together. People complimented me on it. I think the cases can get hot enough for the spindles to move. I can't see any other way I ended up with this .020 clearance on all the spindles when there was .003- .005 before. The spindle for the front intake rocker turns when I tighten the nut too much. It wasn't like that when I first assembled the engine but that is the way it is now. I think the others are a bit tighter because they can't spin but they aren't that tight. They must all be pretty close to spec since they are all new spindles in bushed holes reamed back to standard size. Probably the spindles didn't move until last summer in the Okanagan when it was about 100 degrees F! British Colombia was starting to burn and there was smoke everywhere. I really like the idea of more oil going down the push rod tubes. I have sealed guides, so I will do something to increase the oil down there. I had worried that opening the oil holes out to much might reduce the return of oil to the tank too much. I think I will just do that to the rear one and then make sure I have no contact happening with the valve caps.
 

Nigel Spaxman

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VOC Member
Started to put it back together last night. It turned out all the cams had some wear, more than there should be. I didn't replace any of them yet though because I want to make sure the problem is solved first. I have a spare set and an extra set of followers. I stoned the damage off the cams and followers using a diamond hone. Only the one lobe was really bad and on that one I replaced the follower since it had about A .060 deep groove. I cleaned up all the other followers with the hone none of them had indentations more than about .001 deep. I think I need more oil going to the cams, but from what I can see if I put more oil down the front and rear push rod tubes that oil will miss the cams. The oil from the rear tube will go behind the cam and the one on the front tube will go in front of the front one. Only the two middle tubes are pointed right at the cams so I am going to add more holes to those rocker feed bolts. I shortened one push rod.
 
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