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Misc: Everything Else Brakes, Linings, Drums and Shoes

davidd

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I would not buy linings from a supplier that could not cite the exact model of the lining and the coefficient of friction, both cold and hot, of the linings. There is no other way for you to document what works best for you. This is often done in letter code. The Green Gripper is "GF". The letter codes work as follows:

E=0.25-0.35
F=0.35-0.45
G=0.45-0.55
H=0.55-0.65

If a lining is labeled "GF" like the Green Gripper it has 0.52 cold and 0.43 hot. The first letter is the cold number and the second letter is the hot number. GF is fine for the street. If you were racing, you might want GG or higher because you need the hot performance to be pretty better than average. HH linings are available, but they require lots of heat and are usually too unstable for normal use.

If you have installed disc brake pads on anything the letter code is often displayed on the edge of the friction material in paint.

David
 

Texas John

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
David, Which ones are the GGW? The ones with .51 Coefficient?
How did you find that out?
Could the non-metallic ones be GGA?
Thanks, John
 

MartynG

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Yes the cost of new brake drums is very high, but where can I get some of the course woven linings to try as a cheaper option please
Matty
Have you checked out the cost of the new V3 brake drums? See advert in MPH
 

vibrac

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Just go to the people who I get my race linings from (the nearest thing to AM4) and cover all the surface of my Velo clutch plates (who still uses cork?) they know a lot about linings and about serving customers
Saftek Friction https://saftek.co.uk/ Telford UK
 

davidd

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
David, Which ones are the GGW? The ones with .51 Coefficient?
How did you find that out?
Could the non-metallic ones be GGA?
Unfortunately, you have to work pretty hard to get brake lining information. The GGW is Green Gripper Woven made by ScanPac and their spec sheet gives most of the data. They also make GGA, which is Green Gripper Ariamid, that is not woven, but solid and it is not green (it is grey). The aramid lining does not have aluminum oxide in it so it is not as grippy. It is still in the range of AM4. However, I used Industrial Brake & Clutch in NJ. I asked them if they had ever used GGA. They did not know what I was talking about at first and then caught on. The owner had been using GGW for over 25 years, but had never seen GGA. It is worth calling to see if the lining you decide you want is in their supply chain.

Sometimes you can search specifically for the "J661 tests", which are the SAE designed friction tests used to compare friction materials. GGW is over 0.50 and GGA is just below.

David
 

Attachments

Matty

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I have had a chat with SAFTEK in UK who say they are aware of the problem with Vincent steel drums and will reline my shoes with a suitable woven material for my needs.
Afraid I did not enquire about the exact spec for the material but they say they have supplied it to several riders with no complaints.
Will have to dodge the virus when the linings are fitted to see if this is the solution - luckily I Iive out in the sticks and will have an excuse to pick up medication or shopping if I do not go far from home.
 

Texas John

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
David, My apologies for an unclear question. I was wondering how you determined that the linings on the McMaster web page you gave the link to were actually GGW? And which ones on the page specifically are GGW (the .51 coeff ones?) and if one of the others might be GGA. Because the McMaster site doesn't mention manufacturer. Well, as I look back, you did say "I think" so not an absolute. Perhaps they would inform one if asked.
 

davidd

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I think McMaster would provide the material safety data sheet which would have the manufacturer. I read that folks were buying GGW from McMaster Carr. I looked it up and noted that they did not name the manufacturer. Frankly, I don't care to cure the lining myself before bonding onto the shoes and then curing the bonding agent. I prefer to have someone else do that.

David
 

Roslyn

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Hi - Have just understood about the relative leverage of the two ends of the cam on the brake shoes and the reason for a small difference in leverage to the leading and trailing shoes.
So that is not my problem and will have to think of something else - tried the trick of slackening the spindle,
applying the brake and doing the spindle up again, some years ago to little effect.
I still wonder if it is really the material of the drums or if ribbed Shadow ones are the answer.

This however would be an expensive experiment unless I could borrow a front wheel with Shadow drums from somebody to try !!
I think your right on the money as the old linings as they do dry out with age and also the new materials used today still deteriorates when exposed to heat air and oil over time.
 

Texas John

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
David, Good suggestion - so I wrote McMaster about obtaining the SDS/MSDS information and I will see where that leads.
You were experimenting with some other linings a few months back; did you ever decide if you liked it better than GGW? May have been the Porterfield RD-4 linings? Did you ever try GGA to form an opinion of it? Every time you write about brakes and linings, I learn something but end up with questions!
 

bmetcalf

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Did they go to disc brakes because the drum brake calculations were too difficult?
 

Matty

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Hi
Have sent my old brake shoes to saftec to have "woven" linings fitted and found that one of my shoes has the hooked spring lug broken off, probably by myself many years ago ( have had it since 1956 and done over 100,000 miles). I had drilled a hole for the spring into the shoe and it had worked fine for around 50 years but I may get a friend to weld a lug on like the new ones.
I was going to buy a new one but find that ONE SHOE without the lining is £148 so will make do with my old one repaired.
A pair of shoes with the spring and no linings is £278 and they had to have new moulds made etc. because the old tools can not be used to make them.
OUCH !!
 

davidd

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
You were experimenting with some other linings a few months back; did you ever decide if you liked it better than GGW? May have been the Porterfield RD-4 linings? Did you ever try GGA to form an opinion of it?
It is all a matter of usage. For racing the Vintage Brake 2520V or RD-4 from Porterfield are excellent. These linings need heat to achieve the best performance. Both are very resistant to fade.

For the street, the GGW seems to be the first choice of Vincent owners in the East, but it is probably due to Industrial Brake & Clutch being so easy to deal with. I was hoping that they could supply GGA also, but they will not. This is the problem with brake liners, you have to quiz them about what they can do. Additionally, I can't test something that I cannot get mounted. I think the GGA and Ferotech's 2930 are worth testing, but I have not been able to find brake services that supply them. Dick Hunt in the UK supplies 2930. There was at least one Vincent owner from NZ that recommended Ferotec in earlier discussions.

Did they go to disc brakes because the drum brake calculations were too difficult?
There may be some truth to that! There is no servo action with disc brakes, so the geometry is not as much of a mystery. However, the lack of servo action means that hydraulics is necessary for decent actuation. They also are more resistant to fade from heat because they cool down much quicker than drums.

David
 

timetraveller

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
When a drum gets hot it expands away from the shoes. When a disc gets hot it slightly expands towards the pads but probably more at right angles to them. The discs also have a large surface are in direct contact with the air whereas a drum has to pass the heat through the drum to the outside for cooling. It seems to me that these things must have some importance in making a choice.
 

Mikeant

Website User
VOC Member
When I was racing vintage Nortons in the 70s it was not much of a problem to get speed but the real difficulty was stopping the bikes. The problem as noted is the heat. Two pull ups at the hairpin at Cadwell and the lever was against the twistgrip as the drum had expanded. The interim solution was an inline clutch adjuster hidden behind the racing plate which was used to lengthen the outer whilst lying on the tank at almost 100mph down the Park straight! Next I used an old rear drum and turned what was left of the teeth off but leaving the stiffening ridge. Others shrunk stiffening bands over their drums. An improvement, but the final solution was a stiffer back plate, careful centralisation of the shoes to address the issues discussed above and finally a big air scoop. Discs were about at the time but of course were not permitted under vintage racing rules, However I recall that with my with my Honda 550 you had to be careful if the disc got wet as initially the brake did not do a lot, then suddenly gripped which was not a good idea on a wet road with tyres as they were then.
 

Matty

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Have looked in mph for the new v3 brake drums but can not find the advertisement, could Martyn G point me in the right direction please, because this may be another option.
By the way, the last set of linings were from Villiers who had made a beautiful job of the relining a couple of years ago, but after 3000miles or so the front brake was still very poor- they were not woven or green !!
So these are going on the back while I try some woven front ones from safetec on the front, If they work I will put woven ones from Safetec on the back as well.
 

BigEd

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
VOC Forum Moderator
The V3 add is in the back of the January 2020 issue. #852.
The brake drums are listed at AU$280 approximately £106.00. It doesn't mention postage. etc.
 

Matty

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Thanks for the information about the brake drums, but will try the "woven " linings first when they come back from Safetec.
When I look at the price of new brake shoes, or drums at hundreds of Pounds, I remember that I only bought the Comet in 1956 for £147 as a way to get to work !!
It has been used on and off ever since and never off the road, though did not get a lot of use in the 70s and 80s
Matty
 

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