Bonhams Auction at Stafford

Robert Watson

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VOC Member
Prosper - I agree that the books showed that it cost the Club just over 28K to build the Shadow. I also understand that all parts were supplied at cost. I have absolutley no privy to the markup of parts from VOCS or any other supplier, but if you look at the VOCS books, I'm sure you will soon see that all the cost of running the Co. is covered by the difference between what it costs them for parts and what they sell them for.
I can't put my hands on the numbers at the moment but --- being very crude - and not in vulgar way!
Sales say 200K
Wages, rent, advertising and promotion, VOC member discounts, special offer discounts, fees, light, heat, etc etc plus a profit of 5 or 10K means maybe 60- 70K spent, so 130-140K in parts costs, and you have a mark up of at least 50% - and I suspect likely more.

That means that your 28K in parts now costs more like 42K - or somewhat less if you negotiate a better discount. Not so feasible.

I am not saying the markup is out of line. I have run small businesses and know what one has to do to make a profit at it.

Next option would be for a man to do a one off. Unless you have the capacity to do it in your basement as perhaps one or two in the Club can, you have to farm everything out with perhaps unknown specs. Also not really an option.

Ask Patrick Godet what it would cost to supply an engine. He's a guy doing it every day. That will give you a real world perspective.

Ask the two or three groups building batches of A twin's what the engines cost them - and they are way more simple than a post war twin.

Still doesn't mean I think spending that kind of money for a "Barn Find" twin is reasonable, all it does prove is that there are still guys around with deep pockets!
 
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vibrac

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VOC Member
It was always thus,at Bonhams in 1984 when I bought my 2nd Egli a fellow in the queue calling himself 'mr smith' paid in notes and said to me 'have i bought a B or a C?' followed by 'I normally buy rollers but im running out of space...' for me the wonder number at Stafford was 12.5K for a bike in bits without matching numbers. I guess the big drop will come when decent interest is paid again by banks
 

Vic Youel

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Non-VOC Member
Club Black Shadow

A thought occurs to me.

Knowing that the whole bike was built out of new bits, and allowing for the high test mileage of the engine in the road test chassis. wouldn't it be nice to have a Tony Rose type (monthly?) test report as this VOC financially assisted machine accumulates its miles..... that's assuming it is not becoming a museum piece or collectors item?

Vic;););)
 

Prosper Keating

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Non-VOC Member
A thought occurs to me.

Knowing that the whole bike was built out of new bits, and allowing for the high test mileage of the engine in the road test chassis. wouldn't it be nice to have a Tony Rose type (monthly?) test report as this VOC financially assisted machine accumulates its miles..... that's assuming it is not becoming a museum piece or collectors item?

Vic;););)

Would the new owner be prepared to log his first 250,000 miles on the replica Black Shadow? Did Tim Kirker keep a journal as he tested the motor in his original rolling chassis? That would be interesting to read. Did anyone who rode the complete machine record their impressions?

I wrote to the club proposing a short news clip and an article or two for distribution to a couple of broadsheets and top end magazines but never got a reply. There would have been a number of possibilities of likely benefit not just to the VOC but perhaps even to the vintage vehicle fraternity in general. There were also the ecological angles in which I interested a couple of editors. It was a good story from a number of angles.

It seems a shame that the machine was not retained for general PR and rolling test purposes. Repayment of the loan could hardly have been a pressing matter, given the amount of money on which the VOC is sitting. The VOCSC exists, after all, to keep the Vincent-HRD motorcycles of VOC members - and other riders - on the road.

PK
 

Prosper Keating

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Non-VOC Member
Ask Patrick Godet what it would cost to supply an engine. He's a guy doing it every day. That will give you a real world perspective.

I've known Patrick for more than twenty years. He caters to a certain market. One might even describe it as the top end of the market. I know others who are cheaper, some of whom are utterly reliable, some of whom are typical motor trade shysters.

Ask the two or three groups building batches of A twin's what the engines cost them - and they are way more simple than a post war twin.

The builder or refabricator of serious exotica faces much higher tooling-up outlay than someone looking to build a postwar Vincent-HRD twin lump. I can think, for instance, of four suppliers of 1000cc crankcases. The same applies to heads, barrels and plenty of other parts. Parts like outer covers have to be sourced from one or two occasional suppliers.

People setting out to reproduce Brough SS100s and whathaveyou always end up chasing the rainbow. I saw it several times when I was working in the motorcycle media back in the days before things cost what they cost now. Even the more commercially-minded romantics, like the chaps who tried to put Norton back on the map with the Rotary, or the more staid "Matchless" with the Rotax 500 lump, and came a cropper. Bloor succeeded because he eschewed romanticism and the retro market until the firm was well-established.

Still doesn't mean I think spending that kind of money for a "Barn Find" twin is reasonable, all it does prove is that there are still guys around with deep pockets!

Sure, and the trouble is that every fool fortunate enough to find or be left stuff like this in a barn is going to push for such prices, thereby screwing up the market. And as long as there are bankers and others looking to salt their bonuses into non-taxable holdings, we will see disruption in the values of 'collectibles' across the board.

Put it this way: trying getting an insurer to pay out 60k for a restored, original Black Shadow or the 80k mooted at one point for the replica Shadow and see how far you get! Try getting them to pay out €65,000 on your new Egli-Vincent. That's the real world test of values. A few surreal pieces paid at auction do not a yardstick make...

Thank heavens!

:D

PK
 
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Peter. C

Active Forum User
Non-VOC Member
The cost of rebuilding my wrecked engine came in at £5250 and that was with a lot of the original parts like heads muffs and most of the gearbox being renewed plus all the outer bits being usable. It was the feeling of looking at my 90,000 mile engine when it happened was the worst bit. When the insides are hanging out of the bottom of the cases in a puddles of oil and metal it is beyond
description. So much time,work and enthusiasm gone in a flash.
I now have Carrillos
 

roy the mechanic

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
Screw the insurance(rip-off s.o.b's) Just buy a .45acp (35.00 at your local pub) and keep alert! Protected by loaded guns works for me.Also might keep a few more away too.
 

Tnecniv Edipar

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Non-VOC Member
If the prices being achieved by Vincent's are considered outrageous , just have a look at what Rough Inferiors are fetching !!! When I bought my Rapide 15 years ago I thought then that Vincent's were undervalued , and even at today's prices that view hasn't changed. Goldies and '59 Bonnies are fetching upto £15k for proper minters !!
 

Pete Appleton

VOC Hon. Editor
Staff member
VOC Member
VOC Forum Administrator
VOC Forum Moderator
Build cost

Pete, did you work out what your engine cost to build?

Russ.

I haven't added up the total cost as that would be too upsetting. At a rough tally I would say £13,000 + V.A.T

Obviously that is just for parts as the major attraction for this project was putting it together myself.

This also doesn't cover the cost of all of the peripheral parts like mag cover, ignition system and two charging systems when the Alton proved to be a pile of ....

Pete
 

Len Matthews

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VOC Member
Anyone known to have paid that much over the odds for a classic vehicle will probably end up paying way over the odds to the restorers who help to make the machine better than it was, or better-looking, when it rolled from the works.

Motor trade types have always loved punters with more money than sense. It will probably end up being one of the most expensive Shadows in the world. LOL! Hopefully money really is no object to the new owner and he will actually get out there and have fun on it.

Converting a Comet into a twin is a good way to go. A friend of mine is seriously considering it, although he will keep all the Comet parts carefully stored for the day he might sell the machine.

PK

As a restorer none of my customers have paid "over the odds".Most of them have more sense than money. In fact I've probably lost money on some jobs. The satisfaction comes from turning a wreck into a machine fit to ride and thereby putting another Vincent back on the road.
Len. (Matthews Motorcycles)
 
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