Bonhams Auction at Stafford

Mark Fraser

Well Known and Active Forum User
Non-VOC Member
Did anyone make it to Stafford? Yet again the vinney lot's made decent money. A barn find 'Shadow' making well into 40K!! :confused:

Mark.

Vincent rides this year = 0 :(
 

Prosper Keating

Well Known and Active Forum User
Non-VOC Member
I'd call it indecent rather than decent money. The buyer may spend a minimum of fifteen or twenty grand restoring it and then we're getting up there into the realms of sixty grand for a Black Shadow. At that point, it really does start becoming viable to consider building one from modern parts, given than it would cost less than thirty grand, as the VOCSC experiment showed us.

PK
 
G

Graham Smith

Guest
Trust me, if you wanted to build one from brand new parts, it would cost you far in excess of £30k.
 

Prosper Keating

Well Known and Active Forum User
Non-VOC Member
Really? That's interesting. I seem to remember assurances to VOC members that the price eventually realised from the sale of the replica Black Shadow covered its costs. Referring back to the original proposal in 2005, the VOCSC requested a loan - "staged sponsorship" - not exceeding £35,000 to cover the cost of parts and complete assembly.

If I recall rightly, the September 2006 GCM minutes and accounts suggested that the total cost of the project was in excess of £28,000. The Shadow realised £30,000, after an auction in which both high bidders, for £80k and £50k, were suddenly unable to come up with the funds. When the replica motor was unveiled, the VOCSC suggested that it was worth around £18,000 in retail terms.

A basic, working Vincent-style 1000cc motor can be produced for around £10k. It's still a lot of money for the Man on the Clapham Omnibus, which is why one doesn't see retro-Rockers all over the place on Norvins. However, I know of someone who is looking at producing engines that look the part in India for even less.

A rough rule-of-thumb estimate with the price lists in mind indicate that a rolling chassis comprising new parts might cost between £10k and £15k. Retail prices of the UFM, RFM and complete Girdraulics would account for perhaps £6k. That leaves £5k to £10k for the rest: fuel tank at six hundred sovs, footrests for a couple of ton and so on. The VOCSC stated that the project's costs were covered when the machine was eventually sold. That includes the time devoted to the project by the builder, unless that was donated.

Unless I am missing something here, a fellow with enough fitting skills could build himself a new Black Shadow or Rapide for £30k or less, especially if he set himself up with an off-the-shelf motor trade-themed limited company for a hundred quid or so and benefitted from the same trade discounts that might have offered to approved Vincent-HRD workshops had there ever been any intention to produce small scale production runs of replica 1000s. One would also get the VAT back too.

After all, the VOCSC were able to cover all of the costs, including assembly, for £28k, according to the minutes of the GCM cited above. If a chap knew nothing about spanners and fitting and surrendered himself to some of our more expensive specialists and restorers, I would tend to agree with you that a brand new twin would cost him rather more than thirty grand Sterling. However, some of us still know one end of a spanner from the other as a result of living with these and other British motorcycles for decades.

PK
 
G

Graham Smith

Guest
As the major shareholder, all the parts supplied by the VOC Spares Company Limited to build the Club's 'new' Black Shadow were supplied at a 'trade/cost' rate.

Not at the retail prices you and I would pay if we were to order all the parts required to build a new machine.
 

VinParts

Well Known and Active Forum User
Non-VOC Member
Engine prices.

Graham is right, you can not build a new engine for £10K
The cases, heads, muff/liners, pistons, head parts, rockers, flywheels, gearbox, covers come to about £10.300 and that is only the big bits.

Add on about £5k for the little bits, A BTH @£550, an Alton @£300, carbs @£600 and you are looking at £17.000.00

Pete, did you work out what your engine cost to build?

Russ.
 

TouringGodet

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
VOC Forum Administrator
VOC Forum Moderator
It will be interesting to see how much the White Shadow goes for, at the upcoming Bonhams auction at the Quail, Carmel, California, this Saturday.
More Info
Also the Rollie Free archives, lot 40.
 
Last edited:

Prosper Keating

Well Known and Active Forum User
Non-VOC Member
Graham is right, you can not build a new engine for £10K
The cases, heads, muff/liners, pistons, head parts, rockers, flywheels, gearbox, covers come to about £10.300 and that is only the big bits.

Add on about £5k for the little bits, A BTH @£550, an Alton @£300, carbs @£600 and you are looking at £17.000.00

Pete, did you work out what your engine cost to build?

Russ.

I think you're mixing things up here. Graham reckoned that it would cost far more than £30k to build a working twin. The VOCSC's own statement that their costs were covered by the £30k sale price eventually realised for their replica proves this. In fact, the VOCSC stated that the project cost £28k.

A man with the determination - and access to certain facilities and resources - could probably build himself a Black Shadow for £30k or less. After all, the VOCSC managed it and that was despite all their other considerable commitments.

I'll grant you that someone ordering parts from the VOCSC and other established suppliers and paying a commercial specialist to turn them into a working motorcycle would certainly pay far more than than £30k, once list prices, tax, hourly labour rates, painting work, plus all the other unexpected costs when contracting people to do the work were taken into account.

The VOCSC suggested that complete new twin motors would cost around £18k when they unveiled the prototype or project motor in 2006. This gels with your estimate. However, you are, I think, referring to retail prices. Retail prices on average tend to be around 40% above wholesale or trade. £18k - £7.2k = £10.8k.

A working motor resembling a 1940s Vincent 1000cc engine could be produced for around £10k ex-works. There would be some internal differences. A couple of fairly serious people have costed such a project and it is feasible. Whether or not it will be implemented is another matter entirely, of course. Given the current economic conditions, there seems little mileage to be gained - sorry - from producing ten grand motors for petrolheads. After all, ten grand is a lot of change for most people.

PK
 
Last edited:

Mark Fraser

Well Known and Active Forum User
Non-VOC Member
I'd call it indecent rather than decent money. The buyer may spend a minimum of fifteen or twenty grand restoring it and then we're getting up there into the realms of sixty grand for a Black Shadow. At that point, it really does start becoming viable to consider building one from modern parts, given than it would cost less than thirty grand, as the VOCSC experiment showed us.

PK

Prosper,
Do you really think that barn find shadow will ever see the road?:confused: I very much doubt it. I've broken a Comet to build a twin, I initially put a price of about 10K on building the twin engine but it's come out just under 12K. That's with a healthy discount from a Vin supplier and using the head from the comet. I paid 5K for the Comet four years ago and with the additional parts required to make it a twin I reckon 19K all in. It will always be a bitsa but at least the engine is all new. The thought of spending 20K+ on a Twin then discovering that the engine is junk would just be a financial nightmare for me.:eek:
 

Prosper Keating

Well Known and Active Forum User
Non-VOC Member
Anyone known to have paid that much over the odds for a classic vehicle will probably end up paying way over the odds to the restorers who help to make the machine better than it was, or better-looking, when it rolled from the works.

Motor trade types have always loved punters with more money than sense. It will probably end up being one of the most expensive Shadows in the world. LOL! Hopefully money really is no object to the new owner and he will actually get out there and have fun on it.

Converting a Comet into a twin is a good way to go. A friend of mine is seriously considering it, although he will keep all the Comet parts carefully stored for the day he might sell the machine.

PK
 
Top