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Alton Generator ?

rwhitne2

Active Website User
VOC Member
I am interested in purchasing one of Paul Hamon's units - and converting to 12 volt just for the reliability factor. Any one w/ recent experience, thoughts of on regulator etc. I have a D Shadow / Podtronics reg., rebuilt 6V Lucas unit which just stopped generating etc. Thanks, Mike Whitney, Pownal Maine
PS liking the 8 inch VOC brakes more and more
 

bmetcalf

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I am interested in purchasing one of Paul Hamon's units - and converting to 12 volt just for the reliability factor. Any one w/ recent experience, thoughts of on regulator etc. I have a D Shadow / Podtronics reg., rebuilt 6V Lucas unit which just stopped generating etc. Thanks, Mike Whitney, Pownal Maine
PS liking the 8 inch VOC brakes more and more

I recommend the Alton w/podtronics.
 

tractorman414

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Alton generator

Hi Mike

I've had an one off the first batch of Altons generally available fitted to my D and later [1998] bought one for my C, I have never looked back. they come with their regulator. Can't comment on your electronics, but believe it will make no diffenence to the Alton, If you have been using a Lucas unit, you will only find improvement. The Alton is not the complete answer to Vincent electrical generation, if you want to poodle around town in top gear running a modern headlamp you will a car/industrial engine unit which will be more complex to fit and look very non standard

Bernard Jones

Dorset Section
 

peterg

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
Howdy Mike,

Lucas E3L's are very robust units, have run one on my Red Rap, first with a Bell elec reg and now with a PODtronic - the latter a lovely device I have on quite a few other machines - and would not give up on it just yet. But, they do not like oil or oil mist internally and will glaze the brushes and grease up the commutator very quickly.

If you've very effectively sealed your power unit (emphasis on join between generator drive end and back of primary) and your crankcase breathing arrangement is a bit dodgy, then your motor will attempt to breath through your generator drive if you do not have a lip seal on the genie drive end waft mist over the brushes .

Mine succumbed to the above scenario, fitted a lip seal and a PCV to the breathing system, now back in business. As mentioned at JTAN, PODtronics (and many elect reg's) control output voltage via the field coil ground and are sensitive generator case grounding to the power unit. Powder coated/2 pack painted cases can cause grounding problems if the generator clamp not directly in contact with the E3L exposed metal drive end. If in doubt, lay flattened piece of soft solder under clamp where it rests over the drive end.
 

Michael

Website User
VOC Member
Dynamo hole

Peter,
In looking at the pics of your restoration I noticed the hole through which the dynamo drive gear protrudes to connect with the primary drive chain. The leading edge of the hole is kind of chewed up. It caught my eye because mine is in similar shape- actually a bit worse. I wonder if you, or anyone else, have an explanation for this damage. My bike, which I have only had for about 4 months, arrived missing the dynamo, regulator and battery. I acquired a used Lucal E3L (ebay) and just got all new parts to rebuild it. I probably should have just gone the Alton route but now that I am this far I'll try to make the Lucas work. I am a little worried about the hole and sealing it up so as to keep the oil in the chaincase, not in the generator.
- Michael
 

peterg

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
Howdy Michael,

If you're referring to the one below, appearance is deceptive, these cases were absolutely virginal, that is a cosmolene like coating of old oil and shop dust as the timing cover had been sitting off the machine in a shed for over 35 years after the ATD had acted up. Only reason I can think for that opening being chewed up is someone trying to adapt another charging device to fit those confines. All dimensions taken as one define a pretty narrow range of accomodation and even sever misalignment of a D6/E3L here would not foul anything.

There are a couple of ways to seal the drive. Big Sid liketo lay sealer behind the oil slinger against the case and let dry to close the gap. I use a product sold by NAPA which is wrapped around very high temp lines like a/c condensor lines. It is sold as a flat band tape 2 inches wide with wax paper separator and is a rubberized tar that holds its shape and when heated with a hair dryer adheres to any clean surface. I kneed up a ring around the inside well of the drive on the side facing the generator drive, then slowly press and rotate the generator against it till I get the correct drive sprocket offsets and tooth depth on the chain ring.



vincent8.jpg
 

Michael

Website User
VOC Member
No, Peter, I was referring to the 2nd picture in your album that shows the othe side of the motor with the primary drive chain removed. The caption is "As mentioned elswhere here the motor had a complete powerplant rebuild..."
- Michael
 

peterg

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
Howdy Michael,

...got it, you're talking about the one of the Shadow in the photo albums on this forum here, not the one of the Red Rap at my site. Frankly, didn't notice that at the time as I was more focused on discovering any "surprises" within this new purchase - thankfully none found.

But, you got me to wondering so found the original 8 mega pix master and cropped that out below if this is what your drive opening looks like. This machine was/is still fitted with the D6 it was delivered with.
 

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rwhitne2

Active Website User
VOC Member
Howdy Mike,

Lucas E3L's are very robust units, have run one on my Red Rap, first with a Bell elec reg and now with a PODtronic - the latter a lovely device I have on quite a few other machines - and would not give up on it just yet. But, they do not like oil or oil mist internally and will glaze the brushes and grease up the commutator very quickly.

If you've very effectively sealed your power unit (emphasis on join between generator drive end and back of primary) and your crankcase breathing arrangement is a bit dodgy, then your motor will attempt to breath through your generator drive if you do not have a lip seal on the genie drive end waft mist over the brushes .

Mine succumbed to the above scenario, fitted a lip seal and a PCV to the breathing system, now back in business. As mentioned at JTAN, PODtronics (and many elect reg's) control output voltage via the field coil ground and are sensitive generator case grounding to the power unit. Powder coated/2 pack painted cases can cause grounding problems if the generator clamp not directly in contact with the E3L exposed metal drive end. If in doubt, lay flattened piece of soft solder under clamp where it rests over the drive end.

Peter - thanks. I have run Podtronics on my 6 pre unit Triumphs for years no problems; have one on the D as well as PCV system and no leaks etc. Will check grounds etc. Appreciate the feedback. Mike
 

peterg

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
Howdy Mike,

Something occured to me. With a D you have/had the additional load of a distributor and possibly converted/made the next step to electronic ignition...to go along with the load of lights?

POD's like most electronic reg's are geared towards modern sealed batteries that are happy with a higher running charge rate and limit at 7.2V compared mechanical reg's that cutout in the 6.6V range, though they do limit the amperage which is critical on sealed batteries. A 12 amp 6V PowerSonic/Werker does not like more than 3.5amps.

At any rate, original armatures can overheat, either sling the solder or short in the windings if made to work too hard, I try to balance excessive duty cycling of regulator and load on the generator by using a decent sized battery. In this case, a PowerSonic PS6100 rated at 12 amps sits vertically in a hollowed-out Exide rubber case battery. As D's have a bit more room, I've had very good luck with four applications of their PS6200 20amp battery on my other non-Vin machines.
 

Michael

Website User
VOC Member
this is how mine looks

I have a Series C Rapide. I don't know what Dynamo was mounted before. When I got it there was none. See attached pic of the hole.
 

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peterg

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
Howdy Michael,

The more long tenured owners here can probably identify that immediately, would say possibly a tensioner blade broke at the mounting ears/primary chain broke but if all your cover screw bosses don't have chain run grooves carved into them maybe the fixing bolt on the generator drive came adrift.

Nonetheless, not an issue when sealing an E3L - or even a D6 for that matter - to the backside of the primary if using the sealing material ref'd in previous post. Both of these genie's have a slight standoff when correctly meshed in the primary chain and seated on the case pad to allow some crush of the material. I keep it as tightly layed to the diameter of the hole once I find where the drive end bearing boss wants to position itself to prevent oil welling up on the bottom perimeter of the hole.

Theoretically, the oil slinger is supposed to centrifuge oil from the primary drive off preventing any major leak even if unsealed, I just don't like having a gap there for water to enter from the outside.
 

rwhitne2

Active Website User
VOC Member
Howdy Mike,

Something occured to me. With a D you have/had the additional load of a distributor and possibly converted/made the next step to electronic ignition...to go along with the load of lights?

POD's like most electronic reg's are geared towards modern sealed batteries that are happy with a higher running charge rate and limit at 7.2V compared mechanical reg's that cutout in the 6.6V range, though they do limit the amperage which is critical on sealed batteries. A 12 amp 6V PowerSonic/Werker does not like more than 3.5amps.

At any rate, original armatures can overheat, either sling the solder or short in the windings if made to work too hard, I try to balance excessive duty cycling of regulator and load on the generator by using a decent sized battery. In this case, a PowerSonic PS6100 rated at 12 amps sits vertically in a hollowed-out Exide rubber case battery. As D's have a bit more room, I've had very good luck with four applications of their PS6200 20amp battery on my other non-Vin machines.
Well Peter here is my set up no elect. ignition , all stock cept Podtronic and 2 sealed Hawker 6v - 5 AH batteries in parralell in the Exide box. Worked fine last year til dyno clamp bolts loosened and wound up w/ the lip of PD 28/3 3/4 sheared off and floating around in primary case and PD 33 worn into a cone shape. So got the Lucas rebuilt as well over winter as well. thanks for your continued thoughts . Mike
 

peterg

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
Howdy Mike,

Mercy, painful to even contemplate, it'd been my luck to have some of the loose bits burst the primary case outward.

Here's a thought on getting a 20% amperage jump using only one battery. If you take just the cup portion of a one inch hole saw and run it around the inside floor of that Exide rubber case and grind off those lead plate support ribs cast into it, it yields enough head room to run this Powersonic PS6100 12.0 AH unit (or Werker equivalent if you shop at Batteries Plus) standing vertical on edge. I have a rubber pad on either side and one on the end to space the spade terminals top section off the box wall a tad.

Now old and timid, I like to run a DRL (daytime running light) but not waste any capacity on speedo lights/tailight - which is LED so actually immaterial anyway - so if you have a 4 pole original Miller headlamp switch or even the new VOCS repop, you can wire your headlight on the CH pole which is the first detent. As the brass tumbler is striped, it'll remain on for the high setting, activating the other lights though you'll need to wire a dimmer switch on your bars.
 

rwhitne2

Active Website User
VOC Member
Very good tip Peter re battery - I have something simiiar in my p/u Triumphs and they have been functioning fine for years. the Vincent is my first 2nd coil/battery old bike (the other a 69 TR 6 w/ electronic ignition etc) - both seem to have had simiiar probs. Never a prob w/ magneto/dyno set up. Will persevere! Mike
 

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