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ET: Engine (Twin) Alternative electric starters


greg brillus

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Hi there all, Happy new year and all that..........Just wondered if anyone has any descent pictures and any other useful info about running a pre engagement type starter like the RTV's had years ago. This uses a external tooth ring gear mounted on the back side of the chain wheel, and the starter pinion would mesh from the lower behind. I know it would require some machining to the crank case, I am not worried about that as the cases I will be using are new ones not originals. The RTV cases had a depression cast into the lower rear of the gearbox housing to accommodate the starter, i will not have that luxury, but there are many styles and types of 12 volt starter available now verses years ago. I only ask as the engine will be larger in capacity and I would be concerned about the longevity of a Grosset one in this case........this is also my engine so I can do to it as I please. It is the centerpiece for my next twin project bike based entirely on the twin racer I built a few years back, with all the suspension upgrades plus much more.........I am leaning towards not running any kickstart at all, so the electric starter needs to function like a modern bike, and my right knee is not so great after our accident back in 2015. Interested to see what we come up with on this one...........Cheers......... Greg.
 

vibrac

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Greg not just the starter to be considered a big twin with high compression and racing timing needs a lot of battery capacity think lithium think big
 

greg brillus

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
The engine will be 1200 perhaps more, haven't decided yet.......But it will have a pair of solenoid 12 volt decompressors in the heads to assist with the initial spin up of the crank. Yes will need a good battery to crank at any rate, the bike will be all Vincent, not a Norvin or Egli........The top ends are the newest version of Terry's, so have full CNC'd ports, and chambers....... I think they are around 9:1 comp or thereabouts. My guess is to start looking at the components used in some form of Harley/S&S type engines.
 

Vincent Brake

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Godet will put it in Greg.
At a cost fcos.
I think Steve Hamel did the first idea.
I am doing the same job.
Harley bendix starter motor
To go on a M2,5 Z=74 gear.
If you go smaller you end up less free space outside for ur starter.
You also need a new G2 plate with layshaft bearing laying inwards. And primary chain than a mere 2 mm outwards. This fits with little machining.(well its all a little machining......)
But time seem to less availble these days.
But i believe brother of dear mr Alton, Herve H. is doing a set with bit other ideas in it.

Lots of luck down under, you need it
Cheers V.
 

Chris Launders

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I have a friend with a 1150 Norvin with a chopped engine/Norton box and he has a harley type starter mounted where the standard dynamo fits he has made his own primary which is a cross between a commando and Vincent (the dynamo hump covering the starter end and uses a crank mounted alternator, the clutch is a belt drive Commando one with a custom made starter ring on the back.
 

Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Greetings Greg, I like the German one, There is a youtube somewhere, You would have to do some work on the Dyn' hole.
Stay Safe, Bill.
 

greg brillus

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Thanks for replies, yes I think I have seen a quick video of the set up that Godet had done, but no real details. I will almost certainly want to run a belt primary, which is what the original concept of the RTV engine was supposed to have, but they ran out of funds to go that way. Hence the chain primary with a starter that ran in oil........Not too well at that........ Bill the German one looks sort of ok, perhaps a bit complex, then what to do about a charging system. I think it is vital to help lower the compression on start up, the big bore Harley's have been doing that for years. I am lucky the fires we had here some months back have finished, but it is a constant threat in such a dry country. The loss of thousands of Koala's on Kangaroo Island down south is probably the biggest tragedy.......they cannot be easily replaced, their habitat is decreasing. I've told people that if a fire came through here, any bikes and/or parts I could not get away easily, I would throw everything in my pool. Better to be under water, than torched by fire..............
 

greg brillus

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Hi there Michi, Sounds like you have a great solution there. I'm not concerned about the added weight, as i'll be shaving plenty off else-ware........Single coilover suspension front and rear, and plenty of other tricks learnt along the way. If you could send some via email that would be great.........my address is feelinggreat01@bigpond.com This is a project for the nearish future.......My race bike is getting the treatment for now, and coming along very nicely. Swapping out the ESO/JAWA 2 valve speedway engine for a Comet with just a couple of upgrades here and there.........;).
 

Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
hello greg,
built a harley bendix type starter into my 1330 cc twin. can send some pictures and details via wetransfer if you wish. just need your mail adress.
michi
Michi, Can we all see more, Cheers Bill.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Chris Launders

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Yes that sort of thing but with cast primary casing, I will try and get some info/pictures in the week, that may be the easy bit as I'm on my emergency laptop, my normal one decided it is having a blank screen day. I will also look through pictures on here, it's a black Norvin with fairing and a curious humped seat (that's where the electrics live) there will be pictures from the Bawtry and Crich meets.
 

greg brillus

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Yes we have seen some other examples of starters on here over time. They are quite specific to the particular machine, just the norm for many a Vincent. I know of a chap here in Australia who has a Norvin, chopped engine with a starter off a small block Chev V 8........ My guess is that any V twin of a larger size is a challenge for any starter system to crank over, as you have two large cylinders that is almost the equivalent of a giant single, plus heavy flywheels, a triplex primary, and four main bearings....... This all adds up on the "Drag factor" this explains why kicking an engine over with no decompressor mechanism is difficult........ Have you ever tried turning over a V8 by hand, even with the plugs out........Loads of friction to overcome everywhere. The issue with a starter on these (and other) bikes is the starting mechanism ratio's are all wrong.........On a car engine it uses a small starter pinion driving a large diameter flywheel/ring gear. Whereas on the bikes we are going almost the other way around..........Perhaps I should come up with an "Air start system" injecting compressed air into the cylinders........... Hmmmmmm.
 

genedn

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Greg, What is Mark in Thames, NZ running? Looks interesting and I believe you two have been talking.
 

Marcus Bowden

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
The first system I saw come out of NZ is Graham Jameson's. He cast his own C/cases (made in New Zealand) building it into a Black Shadow. Then the starter, not sure if it was on the same bike though had a very ingenious engaging pinion that ramped up for engagement turned over the engine, if it backfired it was thrown out of engagement.
Another that has been working satisfactorily for several years is Ivor (the terrible) Shannon who built an Egli style Vincent from freshly made castings and fitted it out T.P. parts from over the Tasman Sea and his own starter. Always a busy man is Ivan about to start his 27 litre Merlin engined sports car, nest project is a series "A" Rapide, having already started with old set of exhaust pipes after Chris Knibbs my new set in stainless. Another two capable starters.
bananaman.
 

vinhrd998

Website User
VOC Member
hello greg,
built a harley bendix type starter into my 1330 cc twin. can send some pictures and details via wetransfer if you wish. just need your mail adress.
michi
Hi Michi (Micha?)
Do you happen to know Calle S in Sweden btw?
I have a question about your Electric starter setup. Is it similar to the Godet?
Patrik Olsson
 

Les Thomson

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Yes we have seen some other examples of starters on here over time. They are quite specific to the particular machine, just the norm for many a Vincent. I know of a chap here in Australia who has a Norvin, chopped engine with a starter off a small block Chev V 8........ My guess is that any V twin of a larger size is a challenge for any starter system to crank over, as you have two large cylinders that is almost the equivalent of a giant single, plus heavy flywheels, a triplex primary, and four main bearings....... This all adds up on the "Drag factor" this explains why kicking an engine over with no decompressor mechanism is difficult........ Have you ever tried turning over a V8 by hand, even with the plugs out........Loads of friction to overcome everywhere. The issue with a starter on these (and other) bikes is the starting mechanism ratio's are all wrong.........On a car engine it uses a small starter pinion driving a large diameter flywheel/ring gear. Whereas on the bikes we are going almost the other way around..........Perhaps I should come up with an "Air start system" injecting compressed air into the cylinders........... Hmmmmmm.
 

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