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Misc: Everything Else 1951 Black Shadow Restoration

craig

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
20201220_ProjectShadow51.jpg

I was offered a Black Shadow project in 2013. I purchased the project and immediately started work on it.
Took the cylinders and heads to local Vincent machinist only 3 hrs away.
Crankshaft had been completed ,prior to my purchase, by a Canadian expert and also the tank was painted and done by "Bones".
Then, another Vincent project came up, Then a buddy stopped by and said" Go buy a BMW and lets travel the USA".
Then I got a wild hair and wanted to do the Trans America Trail (TAT). So I purchased a Husqvarna 701E and proceeded to farkle it out for the off road journey. So the Shadow was boxed up for another day.

All that behind, I am now focused on this Shadow project.
The pic above shows the big stuff with a thousand other pieces and projects in boxes.

My goal is a street friendly Black Shadow to ride on a semi daily basis, couple times a week.
 
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craig

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
PD20C3fit.jpg

My issue is only PD22 is installed in PD20......and I have a fit issue with inserting C3/2.

What concerns me also is the fit of PD24 into the PD20 sprocket.
and becoming an additional fit issue with C3/2,,,,never mind the lip seal.

I am about to get my digital mics out,,,,,,now how do you set the zero?
 
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Cyborg

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VOC Member
Buying bushings off the shelf can be a bit of a crap shoot.... too many variables. Faced with the same task of installing new bushings and a seal, this one will be of interest to me. The fact that there is a seal in between the bushings adds to the aggravation. Time saver lapping compound would be fine... except for the fact that the seal is there. Same goes for taking to to the guy with a Sunnen hone. If the bushings are oilite, which they should be, then skimming them on a lathe is an option, but an extremely sharp (appropriate) cutting tool must be used so the pores in the oilite aren’t smushed closed... and then there is the seal in there.
All the more fun because if the chain wheel drags, it’ll haunt you.
I suppose if one had lots of experience, all of the bits could be measured... calculate how much the bushings will shrink when installed and machine the bushings before installing them.

Edit... when installing bushings like the PD22 and C17 it is probably better to use a driver machined to fit into the bushing and then use an arbor press or hydraulic press just so it is easier to get the bushing started straight.... and continue straight. If it gets cocked at all, then the thin wall of the bushing will distort and cause a tight fit or drag on the shaft.
 
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Cyborg

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I thought Cyborg was taking the PEE ?,
But I would be lost without my Phone, Don't know why, In the old days we didn't have anything,
I remember thumbing a lift down the A1 at night, After I broke the T/side main shaft on my Goldie.
And when my Special stuffed a fibre pinion, After a long push, A couple of Lads got me and the Bike home ,
In a removal truck, Didn't want to wait 2 hours for the AA.
It's just all in the Head, Panic in my case !.
Only a short one... the latest tool catalog had a vernier caliper with Bluetooth. I assume that would come in handy for a production shop or QC in a wigit factory.
A friend of mine bought hearing aids and they have Bluetooth so he can listen to music on his iPhone or home stereo instead of his wife. Now there’s a sales feature for you Bill. I couldn’t get a caliper to talk to hearing aids, but one of the kids could.
I do like the digital readout. When turning something on the lathe...Zero it on the dimension you want and then every time you check progress, it tells you exactly how much is left to go. Not necessary, but convenient.
 

craig

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
pd20c3fit-jpg.39740

PD22 seems to be supplied in oilite
PD24 is bronze with a swirl groove.

I chucked up C3/2 on a Norton cut off gearbox shaft and used 180 emery tape, then 320 tape.
Good fit up achieved.
 

timetraveller

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
If you have the facilities modify the inside of the tube at the rear of the C3/2. The sealing methods on all models of Vincents to prevent oil migrating along the inside of this and the gearbox main shaft are inadequate. Machine a groove or taper on the inside of this to take an 'o' ring 1/8" or 3 mm section or something similar and put it there before you push the shoe carrier home. Ensure that there is at least five thou of nip on the 'o' ring before the shoe carrier is fully home. There is no need for sealing compound, an 'o' ring on the outer end or any other form of sealing. It just totally stops any oil migration and one ends up with a clutch which gets dusty, not oily.
 

Cyborg

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
pd20c3fit-jpg.39740

PD22 seems to be supplied in oilite
PD24 is bronze with a swirl groove.

I chucked up C3/2 on a Norton cut off gearbox shaft and used 180 emery tape, then 320 tape.
Good fit up achieved.
I may end up doing something similar. Just had a look at the C3 that I thought I was going to use, and it has some scoring where the bushing runs. Gives me an option if the fit is too tight after the bushings are installed.
 

Robert Watson

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
OR
On the inside end of PD 21 where it fits up against the bearing you can imagine the gap where the radius of the inner race of the bearing is abutted to PD 21 and just slip a 1/16 dia o ring in between there on assembly. We initially started by making new PD 21's and cutting the O ring groove internally before hardening and finish grinding, but the above method requires nothing except slipping the o ring in there.

Now I will pop my head down below the parapet as the precise engineering types lambast me for such a crude method as this is not how o rings are designed to be used!
 

greg brillus

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VOC Member
I don't know about that Robert, You need to be quite inventive to improve these bikes.......We all forget how quickly they built the first of them immediately post war, and no "O" rings back then either......oil leaks would have been common place, something modern folk don't like. I just use a thin smear of threebold on the inner face of the main shaft nut on final assembly.........This works just fine.......except if the bike has an issue with the main shaft nut coming loose all its own.......I believe this generally happens if the spline inside the C3 is worn and allows backlash on the mainshaft.........Not dissimilar to a gearbox out put sprocket that is loose on the output shaft........the nut will always come loose. That is why the mainshaft nuts need to be done up very tight, so no movement can cause any further wear and tear. So any reading this that have a problem with the clutch nut coming loose, you need to replace the C3 for one that has no play on the spline.
 

oexing

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
What I could not see with this design is how the bushes get their lubrication. Yeah, you assemble with grease but no practical means to replace old grease. Poor lubrication in there will lead to a dragging clutch when you really want no friction for silent 1st gear selecting from stand still. So to achieve this most modern bikes got needle or roller bearings in the clutch gear or sprocket, oiled by gearbox oil or so.
The inner bush may get some oil from along the gear shaft, but after the o-ring the outer bush will be dry or starved . So when looking for a new place for a seal it would be better to have it at the outer end for leaving more oil to both bushes.
I made some mod in the sprocket for a needle bearing, the rest is a Kawasaki clutch , modified a lot plus adapters onto the Vincent gear shaft. No oil seal required with a semi wet clutch. But maybe one could get a needle bearing plus seal at the end to work with the standard clutch somehow ?

Vic
P1060890.JPG


P1060893.JPG


P1060897.JPG
 

greg brillus

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
To answer Vic's question, I believe the chainwheel bushes are not generally a snug fit, running clearance a good 3 thou or more, and oilite material on the thin outer bush.......The scroll on the inner bush would help to feed oil to some extent. I don't believe this arrangement works as well with a multiplate clutch because the clutch assembly is mounted out from the chainwheel, thus any play in the bushes makes the clutch wobble around too much.......this would not help with the clutch "freeing off" So Vic's bearing mod is good, if not a bit difficult, certainly for anyone else without the ability to machine up parts.
 

craig

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
This is a lip seal same dimensions as bushing ID/OD?
What is this smeared number?

I thought an oring was discussed for sealing this.


DanSmithSeal.jpg
 
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greg brillus

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VOC Member
Craig, I use "O" rings there.......To fit a seal the outer end of the shaft needs to be machined to take a very small section seal.........Obviously the bronze bush would need to be slightly shortened to do this. You have to exercise a lot of care when passing the G 3 shaft through this seal as the spline for the kick start ratchet gear will damage the seal very easily, plus the circlip groove as well. A smear is a a light coating that covers the inner face of the C 20 nut, around the outer edge so that it forms a seal on the mating face of the C 3........Like I said, if the C 3 is a nice fit on the mainshaft, with no back and forth play, then this seams to work well..........If the bushes in the G 4 are good without excessive play, the gearbox should not leak badly from there.......The factory spec of oil quantity was 2 pints (1200 ml's) ......I generally put one litre in and add about another 100 ml's until the oil just shows on the tip of the dip stick........Using the full 1200 ml's can result in the box leaking........One litre is actually plenty enough anyway........I use 80 w 90 gear oil in all the gearboxes.
 

timetraveller

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I think that that somehow things have got confused. Considering only the clutch side of the gear box. My suggestion about the 'o' ring, inside and at the inside end of the C3 shaft is intended to stop oil getting inside that tube and passing through the C3 around the gearbox main shaft. If there is any doubt about what I am referring to it is where the early Vincent recommendation was sealing compound and later a modified C3 and modified C20 together with an 'o' ring. Oil passing along the main shaft by this route will emerge inside the clutch drum and cause slipping. Any oil passing through the inside of the clutch sprocket will emerge behind the clutch drum and will get flung outwards and unlikely to get onto the linings. Lubricating the bushes and seal inside the sprocket probably requires that a small amount of oil gets in there.
A small section 'o' ring at the output side of the gear box only requires the bush to be tapped in about a mm so I did not machine the bush itself. I will find out eventually whether that was a mistake or not, The 'o' ring mod at the clutch side of the gear box has worked without problems for, probably, 55 years.
 

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