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Misc: Everything Else 1951 Black Shadow Restoration

craig

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
20201220_ProjectShadow51.jpg

I was offered a Black Shadow project in 2013. I purchased the project and immediately started work on it.
Took the cylinders and heads to local Vincent machinist only 3 hrs away.
Crankshaft had been completed ,prior to my purchase, by a Canadian expert and also the tank was painted and done by "Bones".
Then, another Vincent project came up, Then a buddy stopped by and said" Go buy a BMW and lets travel the USA".
Then I got a wild hair and wanted to do the Trans America Trail (TAT). So I purchased a Husqvarna 701E and proceeded to farkle it out for the off road journey. So the Shadow was boxed up for another day.

All that behind, I am now focused on this Shadow project.
The pic above shows the big stuff with a thousand other pieces and projects in boxes.

My goal is a street friendly Black Shadow to ride on a semi daily basis, couple times a week.
 
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oexing

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Bill,
you are quite right with nylocs - basically. But I don´t have them in my engines at this place, had to have all special spindles - Argentina B-Raps - so went for tiny o-rings in recesses at spindle ends instead. I can easily measure up all depths for recesses and countersinks in the timing cover so I can tell if that is allright for o-rings. My guess, nylocs can come in variations of sizes where the rubber seals have to go, so a no for me.
Incidentally I had to do extensions on most spindles when I finished them - had them case hardened 30 years ago and only a few years ago found out that I had them too short . I did not see that the steady plate goes on spacers and not bolted on those cast pillars directly. Well - another hour or two for trick extensions to rectify this. For bolting up the extensions I had no space for hex heads , too close to the cam gears. So an new experience with milling - ah, what´s a hexagon with twelve corners - a twelveagon ?
Today I looked at this photo and found no detail on cam spindle ends about seals there so seems I missed something in this stage.

Vic

P1070815.JPG
 

craig

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I have had a pair of new cams in inventory for quite a while. I was planning on using them, but the exhaust lobe on both cams runs into the valve lifter.MO13Cams2.jpg

I have a pair of used Mk1 cams with a much smaller lobe style and they clear , no problem, but they show wear and I desire new cams.
 
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oexing

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Craig, my cams are Andrews Mk 2 so you could grind a bit off the lifter levers where they foul the cam. Better to bin that roller and have that spot hard welded to your liking. Rollers were notorious to fall out and wreck the timing side !

Vic

P1070795.JPG
 

Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Yes Vic , The nylocs for the Cam and Follower spindles are a lot thinner than normal.
And they are sooo tight on the threads, if you do not ease them with a tap or,
I wind them on an old shaft a bit, They will shift the spindles, Not good.
 

craig

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Cam compare.
I am only wanting to pursue available parts with no hard facing or special machine work.
I did look for new cams and VOC spares offers quite a few.

20210417_CamCompare2.jpg
20210417_CamCompare1.jpg



This new cam on the left in both photos appears to have a scrawled etch, (not shown)
on the back base area, with "M & SONS 64"
 
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oexing

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Could be Maughams and Sons ? As to lifter levers I would not have the courage to run them with loose rollers. So all you need is a bench grinder and somebody to TIG weld decently hard material in the suitable place. You can grind this to your liking at the bench grinder too, no need for extra pecision for valve lifters.

Vic
 

craig

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Someone please refresh my memory -
What cams did a February 1951 Black Shadow leave the factory with?

Where is the book or reference to document this fact?

VOCCams1.jpg
 
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oexing

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Same as Rapides I think. But your cam in second photo got a very different lobe shape from what I know. I would not think this goes with flat followers ? But then, maybe the mild MK 1 ? My Andrews M 2 got a distinctive beak on the lobe to go with flat followers, so - - - - ?

Vic

P1040586.JPG
 
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craig

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
High lift cams will probably induce more issues. I am setting them aside.
My in hand used cams looking very nice, more like new by the minute.

Where is a web reference, in photos, to identify Mk1, Mk2, Mk3 profiles please?
I would like to identify these used cams.
 
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timetraveller

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I do not think that you will be able to tell the difference between a Mk I and a Mk III from photographs. The Mk II had a rounder nose and you can probably see the difference if you have photos of a known Mk I and a known MK II. Otherwise, trying to tell the difference from photographs will be more or less impossible. The way the check is to measure the lift of the valves against engine rotation and plot a graph of that. You are clearly a patient man and you will need to be. Mk I cams were fitted to Rapides, Shadows and Comets originally although Shadows might have been fitted with selected cams to give more accurate timing.
 

Russell Kemp

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
The Cam on the left could be a 105 (I have some 105 Cams in the workshop and will have a look when I get a chance). You could email the photo to Steve at M&S and ask the question? The Cam on the right looks like a MK1. I was told that a MK3 Cam was like a MK1 but with a slightly rounded back (know as a quietening ramp). Looking at your build photos I see that you have not put any goo over the heads of the crankcase studs in the primary side and note that you have not put a wine cork or a plug in the KS tunnel, both good advice given to me by my old man. As for using a Simmons nut (part no 98) on the Spindles this is a must use to get a good seal with the ET183, if using the right spec nut you will not have any problems with Spindles turning unless the Spindle fit is shot in the first place.
 

Peter Holmes

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I would have expected that one of the two Phil's would have spec'd specially manufactured nuts to mate with the cam spindles instead of relying on off the shelf items, which is apparently is a bit haphazard.
 
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craig

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Looking at your build photos I see that you have not put any goo over the heads of the crankcase studs in the primary side and note that you have not put a wine cork or a plug in the KS tunnel, both good advice given to me by my old man.
Thanks Russell, I am consuming wine at a glorious rate to find the correct OD cork for this KS tunnel.
I am keeping a digital caliper at every meal.
Cheers
Craig
 

craig

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I have found that a wine cork can be hand ground on a bench grinder to a smooth finish to the correct dimension, well may not that smooth but workable.

Should sealant be used? it seems the oil would swell it tighter. Simply drive it in .


20210418_WineCork1.jpg
 

craig

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
After grinding the resized wine cork, which doesn't take any effort at, the cork is easily examined for condition. I touched this wine cork up with files as needed to suit me. The cork looked super clean, I was very pleased. drove this 2" wine cork into the shaft hole with a plastic hammer.

I spent additional time removing the RFM to allow shimming the RFM axle to full plate to plate width. My first RFM install did not seem tight enough. Needed to add .030" on both sides.
 

craig

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Fitting a 12v Alton dynamo. With everything mounted and spaced, there is a 0.090" gap between the Alton casing and the back of the primary., as shown
Require sealing, or a gasket or?
Thanks
Craig

Plastic sprocket supplied with Alton, also standard slinger ring behind this white plastic sprocket.

20210421_AltonFitUp1.jpg20210421_AltonKitwithSlinger.jpg
 

greg brillus

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Craig, The crankcase and primary area vents out this gap between the slinger and the ET 164 Hat shield pressed into the generator opening.........A lot of folk like to seal this off with a gasket/O ring arrangement or the usual half a tube of sealant.........The gap should be as close as possible without the slinger actually touching the ET 164, But also the generator sprocket needs to be set centrally on the chainwheel sprocket. There should be some clearance for and aft, and up and down of the sprocket teeth verses the chain rollers, this because the chainwheel moves around quite a bit......When the sprocket is set up wrong, and the chainwheel bushes are worn, this tends to destroy the white plastic generator drive sprocket quite quickly.........The teeth on it are actually wider than the stock steel one so this makes the set up that bit more important.........Sometimes you even have to shim the lower generator cradle up higher on top of the crankcase to get the sprocket set up correct, done this a few times. The trick to oil leaks coming from this area is to check the primary oil level on occasion and drain a little off.......If the level is say a 1/2" higher than the level screw on the primary cover, then it generally will start to loose oil at this opening.
 

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