I'm afraid I don't have DRO but none of it is complicated machining, had a quick look on ebay but couldn't find any 30mm wide but plenty at 35mm. Just one of the idea's I'll put on the "get round to "list.
Chris.
Chris.
H: Hubs, Wheels and Tyres Brake Shoes and Linings
- Thread starter Eric
- Start date
"EBC316 brake shoes" on Ebay UK gives just under two dozen suppliers.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?L...e+shoes.TRS0&_nkw=ebc316+brake+shoes&_sacat=0
The EBC316G has rain and mud grooves carved into the shoes, which should not matter because the linings are not worthwhile.
The EBC343 is wider and will work, but I thought I would start out with the narrowest shoe so the diagonal bracing was not chopped off so radically.
David
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?L...e+shoes.TRS0&_nkw=ebc316+brake+shoes&_sacat=0
The EBC316G has rain and mud grooves carved into the shoes, which should not matter because the linings are not worthwhile.
The EBC343 is wider and will work, but I thought I would start out with the narrowest shoe so the diagonal bracing was not chopped off so radically.
David
Hi Martin
I’ve been using this material for the last few years.
http://www.ferotecfriction.com/d3920-us/
More grip both hot and cold than AM4.
I get it from my local brake shop in Nelson NZ.
Cheers Bill
Bill,
Thank you for the Ferotec cite. It is available in the U.S., but I was not sure where else it was available. The D3290/D3291 is an excellent lining. I think it is valuable to be able to ask at your brake shop what is available and have a few choices of linings that they may be able to offer.
One of the valuable things you can find in modern linings like the ones I am testing and the Ferotec is that they do not fade easily. These linings start out cold with a lot of friction and when they get hot they get better, not worse. High fade was always a problem with older high friction linings. It is still something to keep in mind with poor cooling drum brakes, but I think these new compounds are a real improvement.
The Ferotec linings have a friction code (often called "edge code") of "GG." The letters go up with the friction, so an "FF" would have less bite. The first letter is the cold rating and the second letter a hot rating. If you had a "GF" rating it would indicate that the brake has some loss of grip when hot, but that is still a very good rating. The rating stops at "H", which is everything over .55. The linings I am testing are "HH."
The Green Gripper has been well received by those using it over here, but the Ferotec does a little better in the fade area. The fact that it is readily available and you have used it for a few years is great news.
David
Thank you for the Ferotec cite. It is available in the U.S., but I was not sure where else it was available. The D3290/D3291 is an excellent lining. I think it is valuable to be able to ask at your brake shop what is available and have a few choices of linings that they may be able to offer.
One of the valuable things you can find in modern linings like the ones I am testing and the Ferotec is that they do not fade easily. These linings start out cold with a lot of friction and when they get hot they get better, not worse. High fade was always a problem with older high friction linings. It is still something to keep in mind with poor cooling drum brakes, but I think these new compounds are a real improvement.
The Ferotec linings have a friction code (often called "edge code") of "GG." The letters go up with the friction, so an "FF" would have less bite. The first letter is the cold rating and the second letter a hot rating. If you had a "GF" rating it would indicate that the brake has some loss of grip when hot, but that is still a very good rating. The rating stops at "H", which is everything over .55. The linings I am testing are "HH."
The Green Gripper has been well received by those using it over here, but the Ferotec does a little better in the fade area. The fact that it is readily available and you have used it for a few years is great news.
David
Hi David, I spoke to a fellow Vincent owner who was at the Winton races last weekend, apparently Phil is suffering from brake fade quite badly on the racer, that was using the type of linings that I got from Vintage brake some time ago..............Any suggestions.............The issue also I think is he is use to moderns with high powered disc brakes, and no drum is going to compare with that. Cheers............Greg.
Greg,
It is a little hard to say. I have been working under the idea that the Vincent single leading shoe need a big boost in the coefficient of friction to wake it up and make it work. However, with a big 4 leading shoe you probably do not need as big a boost in the coefficient of friction, because all of the shoes are working as hard as they can. Thus, the Porterfield RD-4 that I am testing might be too grippy for a big leading shoe brake even though its grip at 600 degrees F is better than cold. I have also talked to Porterfield about Australia and they do not have a presence there.
Ideally, if you could find out the coefficient of friction of the existing linings Phil is using and that would allow you to make a better choice because you could pick a lining with better fade performance and stay near to the original design specs for the coefficient of friction.
If you cannot get that information, I think the Ferotec D3920 would be the logical place to start. Here are some of the details:
When looking at the numbers, I believe when they say "hot" they are referring to working temperature which is around 212 F. To see what happens at blistering hot go to 400 F. You can see it does drop. And, look at the line in the middle graph that shows the second fade... it is still pretty good until above 550 F. The shape of the curve is pretty good, showing that the coefficient gets better until it gets stinking hot, but it always stays pretty high.
This is pretty much a guess based on the premise that AM4 was a lining that was used in the big four leading shoe brakes during their day. The closer you stick to the AM4 coefficients, the more likely it is that you won't have grabbing problems.
It is a little hard to say. I have been working under the idea that the Vincent single leading shoe need a big boost in the coefficient of friction to wake it up and make it work. However, with a big 4 leading shoe you probably do not need as big a boost in the coefficient of friction, because all of the shoes are working as hard as they can. Thus, the Porterfield RD-4 that I am testing might be too grippy for a big leading shoe brake even though its grip at 600 degrees F is better than cold. I have also talked to Porterfield about Australia and they do not have a presence there.
Ideally, if you could find out the coefficient of friction of the existing linings Phil is using and that would allow you to make a better choice because you could pick a lining with better fade performance and stay near to the original design specs for the coefficient of friction.
If you cannot get that information, I think the Ferotec D3920 would be the logical place to start. Here are some of the details:
When looking at the numbers, I believe when they say "hot" they are referring to working temperature which is around 212 F. To see what happens at blistering hot go to 400 F. You can see it does drop. And, look at the line in the middle graph that shows the second fade... it is still pretty good until above 550 F. The shape of the curve is pretty good, showing that the coefficient gets better until it gets stinking hot, but it always stays pretty high.
This is pretty much a guess based on the premise that AM4 was a lining that was used in the big four leading shoe brakes during their day. The closer you stick to the AM4 coefficients, the more likely it is that you won't have grabbing problems.
David,
I was wondering what linings you were experimenting with - appears you were referring to the Porterfield R-4 linings, yes? Are you doing the 7 or 8 inch ones? Can you comment on their performance yet? And how much (cost) to reline your shoes with this lining (each or set of 4), please? Thank you. Appears there are several fairly good lining choices out there.
I was wondering what linings you were experimenting with - appears you were referring to the Porterfield R-4 linings, yes? Are you doing the 7 or 8 inch ones? Can you comment on their performance yet? And how much (cost) to reline your shoes with this lining (each or set of 4), please? Thank you. Appears there are several fairly good lining choices out there.
John,
R-4 is their traditional race compound and they make another R-4 that is a Kevlar woven lining. RD-4 is a later development.
Four stock Vincent shoes were $119 not including shipping. I have had a set of 4 stock shoes relined, one pair of new shoes relined (for a rear brake use) and four 8" shoes relined with RD-4. Unfortunately, they ground the 8" shoes too thin by mistake and had to do them again. This meant the shoes came a little late to get them to David Tompkins for testing this weekend. They will be tested in July instead.
I don't mind sharing all of the info I have, but I have been a little coy about these linings because they have not been tested. At a minimum, the Ferotec D3920 and the Green Gripper linings have been Vincent tested. The RD-4 linings have been used on car drum brakes for quite a while so, I am fairly confident they will work, but the devil is in the details. We might find the fine on the front, but not the rear, or something similar.
I am not certain as to why more companies do not disclose the coefficient of friction. It is a number that is required to be used in the design of the brake, so it is logical that you would want to know what the number is of the replacement. It may be that the numbers do not show linear performance and can be misunderstood. Some companies do repackaging and don't want you to go shopping around them. In the U.S. the DOT requires the "edge code" be on the linings, but thin linings don't show the edge code. At least you can purchase something with the same edge code, which reflects the hot and cold coefficient number.
David
David Tompkins ran in practice today at New Jersey Motorsports and this was the first test of the .61 coefficient of friction brake lining and I also supplied him with two new 7" rear brake shoes with the same lining (he has only one rear brake.)
Just to set the stage, he had initially run the race lining supplied with the 8" brake that Mike Hawthorne is running. He found the squealing to be so annoying it was unsettling. He changed the lining to one used by Patrick Godet which turned out to be much better stopping with no squealing. The linings and shoes I supplied him with, which he tested today, performed the best of all according to Dave. He did race there last year and he took 7 seconds off his lap time during the practice.
We have some more testing to do, but I think this is good news for improving the Vincent brakes. I do have higher friction linings that I can try (and I probably will), but this lining performs quite well cold (.61) and they go up to .63 at 600 degrees F. That type of performance is difficult to find in any lining and I suspect that going higher in friction will require more heat in the brakes, which would not be good for street use.
A shot of the rear shoes before arcing and chamfering. The standard Vincent geometry was used for placement of the lining.
David
Just to set the stage, he had initially run the race lining supplied with the 8" brake that Mike Hawthorne is running. He found the squealing to be so annoying it was unsettling. He changed the lining to one used by Patrick Godet which turned out to be much better stopping with no squealing. The linings and shoes I supplied him with, which he tested today, performed the best of all according to Dave. He did race there last year and he took 7 seconds off his lap time during the practice.
We have some more testing to do, but I think this is good news for improving the Vincent brakes. I do have higher friction linings that I can try (and I probably will), but this lining performs quite well cold (.61) and they go up to .63 at 600 degrees F. That type of performance is difficult to find in any lining and I suspect that going higher in friction will require more heat in the brakes, which would not be good for street use.
A shot of the rear shoes before arcing and chamfering. The standard Vincent geometry was used for placement of the lining.
David